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Finman, I don't have a dog in this hunt. You seem like a numbers type of guy so I am wondering if you have any numbers concerning the cost if a couple of tired pilots get macho, don't call out fatigued and plant an airplane somewhere it doesn't belong?

Remember, according to the NTSB airline accidents are generally a series of events that occur and a tired crew isn't as likely to break the chain of events as a non-tired crew would.

Also, what would you be saying after any such incident about how the crew acted? Would you say something like 'those darn pilots should have called out sick and never flown that day'?
 
I guess Finny only responds while he is working and on NWA time.

Just for grins, here are some posts from another forum with a similar thread talking about the excuse letter Stealin' sent to all employees:

1. "Problem is management runs the numbers and the numbers said everything was fine. Management will not talk to the employees to find out what the data isn't telling them....

Hence... no leadership. and oh yeah its the pilots fault...management cannot resist the sick call/absenteeism jab...."

2. "So what you are saying is that these guys need MORE than an MBA to run Northwest. Unbelievable!I especially like how they initially tried to blame the whole event on weather initial. They knew that was an out right lie. The next day, they had to admit it was due to pilot shortage. These guys are really out of touch. No wonder NWA stock is down......"

3. "2. In the spring of this year, recognizing that summer weather might be challenging and that this would be the first summer operating in our post restructuring environment"

so didn't they have weather the other 75 years of operating?

and what does the first quarter in the "post restructuring environment" have to do with anything?"

4. "couldn't the bonehead in charge summarize this diatribe of propaganda by simply saying: 'i don't know what the he11 i'm doing running an airline?"

It's like I tell my son sometimes..."Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know.
 
Remember, according to the NTSB airline accidents are generally a series of events that occur and a tired crew isn't as likely to break the chain of events as a non-tired crew would.

AA, Little Rock, 1999.
Textbook example of the above.
 
What a way to operate an airline! People who are focused on building businesses now find themselves lumped together with airline executives. This is most unfortunate and certainly less than objective.

What is most obvious is that troubled airlines need to change from the executive ranks first and foremost. The airline segment of the transportation industry used to lead by airline builders rather than the scoundels who now claim the title of airline executives.
 
Finman, I don't have a dog in this hunt. You seem like a numbers type of guy so I am wondering if you have any numbers concerning the cost if a couple of tired pilots get macho, don't call out fatigued and plant an airplane somewhere it doesn't belong?

Remember, according to the NTSB airline accidents are generally a series of events that occur and a tired crew isn't as likely to break the chain of events as a non-tired crew would.

Also, what would you be saying after any such incident about how the crew acted? Would you say something like 'those darn pilots should have called out sick and never flown that day'?
I don't buy into the premise that fatigue is the sole issue that is driving sick calls to be 80% higher YOY and 40% higher than the previous month.

The fact is that sick abuse has been escalating for the last 5 years or so, to the point where it's an absolute joke. The sick percent of hard used to be in the 5% range for several years. In recent years, this has been on a steady increase, to now where it's just above 20% of hard. That is a four-fold increase in sick usage rates over that period. If this hadn't been escalating to such a degree, then NWA wouldn't have had to be so aggressive in cutting other areas of the contract, in an effort to get our pilots to be as productive as the industry average. If the sick abuse that popped up in recent years was eliminated, and sick % of hard went back down to 5% of hard, there would be about $30M of annual savings to the company that wouldn't have had to be reduced from other areas of the contract.

The "Fatigue" claim thrown out there is completely bogus. If they had been not been abusing sick so drastically prior to this spike, then maybe that would hold water. The pilots got what they wanted which was cancelled flights and bad PR for Northwest.

I'm not sure whey it's mandatory for all unionists to jump to the pilot's defense on this issue. Apparently, a few hundred pilots sitting home all month earning sick pay, playing golf is ok with you, as long as it makes NWA look bad.

By the way, if it were fatigue driving this, wouldn't the fatigue occur in the middle of a trip? All of the sick calls are occurring between trips (after pilot has been home for a couple or more days), and the pilot calls in sick for the next trip just prior to the scheduled beginning of his trip. That way, he gets to take the entire trip off, and gets paid the entire value of the trip.
 
I don't buy into the premise that fatigue is the sole issue that is driving sick calls to be 80% higher YOY and 40% higher than the previous month.

The fact is that sick abuse has been escalating for the last 5 years or so, to the point where it's an absolute joke. The sick percent of hard used to be in the 5% range for several years. In recent years, this has been on a steady increase, to now where it's just above 20% of hard. That is a four-fold increase in sick usage rates over that period. If this hadn't been escalating to such a degree, then NWA wouldn't have had to be so aggressive in cutting other areas of the contract, in an effort to get our pilots to be as productive as the industry average. If the sick abuse that popped up in recent years was eliminated, and sick % of hard went back down to 5% of hard, there would be about $30M of annual savings to the company that wouldn't have had to be reduced from other areas of the contract.

OK, let's look at the last five years in general, not just NWA. Most of the US airlines have been trying to get more work done with fewer people, or at least the same amount of people. They call it efficiency. The problem is that people are not machines. I don't have any studies to support this, but my guess is that the average worker can work indefinately at 80-85% of peak maximum efficiency. They can increase to 90-95% for periods of time, but working that efficiently causes problems because some people cannot maintain that for as long as employers would like. People working at 100% of peak maximum efficiency definately cannot maintain that for any period of time. They just can't.

Now piloting comes with a certain amount of stress. Rules, regulations, procedures all get mixed into constantly changing environemts, such as weather, airport facility availability, equipment issues, etc. So the pilots, while flying, are constantly working to maintain operational integrity while keeping fully updated on any and all information that bears on the flight. Pilots in 2007 are working a lot more hours then they were pre-deregulation. Unfortunately, air crews just cannot work as effciently as some admin types behind a desk would like them to obtain and maintain. Why, because I submit the folks on the ground generally don't have a real clue what pilots are supposed to be doing.

I'm not sure whey it's mandatory for all unionists to jump to the pilot's defense on this issue. Apparently, a few hundred pilots sitting home all month earning sick pay, playing golf is ok with you, as long as it makes NWA look bad.

By the way, if it were fatigue driving this, wouldn't the fatigue occur in the middle of a trip? All of the sick calls are occurring between trips (after pilot has been home for a couple or more days), and the pilot calls in sick for the next trip just prior to the scheduled beginning of his trip. That way, he gets to take the entire trip off, and gets paid the entire value of the trip.

I'm not a traditional unionist. However, after having been employed in the airline industry I know that the average front-line employee is probably better off with a union then without one. Hell Finny, airlines make a game out of finding convoluted ways to interpret contracts that they themselves negotiated and then tell the employees to "grieve it". Because of the RLA the employees are pretty toothless when pushing for any remedies and the employers know it.

As for how and when the pilots are calling out sick I suggest two things. One, maybe they are at home or a crash pad and feeling not at what they consider necessary in order to come to work. I'll tell you that one of the things I really worried about was getting full-blown sick while away from base on a trip. I've had ear problems twice. Both times, thank God, was on the way into a city with a domicile because I could not work like that. In fact both times the company doctor grounded me for 30+ days. So, perhaps at least some of the pilots are trying to avoid having to cancel legs away from base where there is no one to pick up the slack and keep the operation running, rather trhen stranding a plane, crew and customers in some out station.

I would suggest that if you have never worked a 12-14 hour day in bad weather, had min rest scheduled, a noisy hotel and a lack of food available that your ability to understand just what it is really like on the road impairs your ability to judge these folks.
 
The fact is that sick abuse has been escalating for the last 5 years or so, to the point where it's an absolute joke. The sick percent of hard used to be in the 5% range for several years. In recent years, this has been on a steady increase, to now where it's just above 20% of hard. That is a four-fold increase in sick usage rates over that period. If this hadn't been escalating to such a degree, then NWA wouldn't have had to be so aggressive in cutting other areas of the contract, in an effort to get our pilots to be as productive as the industry average. If the sick abuse that popped up in recent years was eliminated, and sick % of hard went back down to 5% of hard, there would be about $30M of annual savings to the company that wouldn't have had to be reduced from other areas of the contract.

I know I am probably wasting my time, but here goes.

The effects of treating the employees like s**t are coming home to roost at NWA and the other carriers who have successfully "restructured" the airline. Low morale, low pay, benefits slashed, and no incentive to do better, all have driven employees to have a "I don't give damn" attitude. I know, Finny, go ahead and tell them all to go work somewhere else. I'm sure that will help improve the sick call rate.

Maybe NWA management needs to beat the employees with a bigger stick to stop this sick call abuse? I suggest you bring this up at your morning meeting (if you can break away from here long enough to attend).
 
I know I am probably wasting my time, but here goes.

The effects of treating the employees like s**t are coming home to roost at NWA and the other carriers who have successfully "restructured" the airline. Low morale, low pay, benefits slashed, and no incentive to do better, all have driven employees to have a "I don't give damn" attitude. I know, Finny, go ahead and tell them all to go work somewhere else. I'm sure that will help improve the sick call rate.

Maybe NWA management needs to beat the employees with a bigger stick to stop this sick call abuse? I suggest you bring this up at your morning meeting (if you can break away from here long enough to attend).
Unfortunately, there's not much NWA can do if the pilots want to continue with their excessive sick usage. NWA had it's chance during BK to put some significant disincentives into the contract, but ALPA chose to give away other work rules and wages in favor of keeping sick pay paid at nearly 100%. Naturally, this is the reason why, since sick-outs are such a valuable tool in times like these. If sick were paid at 75%, as it was in the original ask and the 1113E rules, there would be much fewer guys willing to take the pay hit.
 
If sick were paid at 75%, as it was in the original ask and the 1113E rules, there would be much fewer guys willing to take the pay hit.
Wanna bet! That statement shows everyone just how absofu**inglutely ignorant you are about flying on the line.
 
Wanna bet! That statement shows everyone just how absofu**inglutely ignorant you are about flying on the line.
Sick usage dropped about 20% immediately following 1113e workrules, and stayed at that lower level until those rules were lifted and the negotiated contract was put in place. Those are the facts. A significant financial disincentive obviously will reduce the targeted behaviour. I.E., the price of staying home sick went from being zero to $500 or so. That's basic economics, and is supported by the data when the disincentive was in place during the time period noted.

If I understand you correctly, you contend that every sick call is a legitimate illness and that even with a $500 penalty for calling in sick for a trip, pilots would still call in sick at the same rate? And I'm the ignorant one?
 
Sick usage dropped about 20% immediately following 1113e workrules, and stayed at that lower level until those rules were lifted and the negotiated contract was put in place. Those are the facts. A significant financial disincentive obviously will reduce the targeted behaviour. I.E., the price of staying home sick went from being zero to $500 or so. That's basic economics, and is supported by the data when the disincentive was in place during the time period noted.

If I understand you correctly, you contend that every sick call is a legitimate illness and that even with a $500 penalty for calling in sick for a trip, pilots would still call in sick at the same rate? And I'm the ignorant one?
ah.......... Economic Blackmail. Forcing sick pilots to work and bust an eardrum! Gotta love this company. They really care about their employees.
Wanna bet! That statement shows everyone just how absofu**inglutely ignorant you are about flying on the line.
Now s/he isn't the ignorant one, rather you are, Finman. We all like to see how you would like to get your pretty dry-cleaned white collar a bit dirty and start washing it in the sink with "Miss Jhirmack" for 6 days after being flown for 12 days straight.

You try so hard to paint this pretty picture of yourself saying: "I'm also get my hands dirty too" nonsense but I suspect you just couldn't get your pretty manicured hands dirty so you went for these pencil pushing jobs. Yeah and you call these pilots and mechanics pussies.... :down:

All and all is you don't get the point that you people pushed these guys to their limits. Even the pilots who came back from furlough was saying this was bad.

Perhaps some of these guys are quitting and going back to some other job, thus burning all the sick time they can get because they came back to realize that their dream...was actually a mirage. :unsure: and chasing the past when this job was fun.
 
ah.......... Economic Blackmail. Forcing sick pilots to work and bust an eardrum! Gotta love this company. They really care about their employees.

Finman, it is unbelievable as to how blissfully ignorant some posters can be. Lets take jenny@nw for example, she actually thinks NWA is using "economic blackmail" to force sick pilots to work. The fact that they are not sick does not seem to register at all with her. 100% sick pay? I am just curious as to how sick pay is determined and how much of it they are eligible to receive?

This is also yet another fine example of the failure of unionism in the US. The very same pilots that walked across AMFA’s picket line without a second glance and, according to some posters here, assisted the Scabs are now receiving support from the very same posters that were bashing them during the strike for protecting their “golden parachutesâ€￾. Talk about a wishy-washy bunch.

Just a curious question for the union lackey’s? Where was this pilot sickout during AMFA’s strike?

Check this out, "Evacuate the airline!", yet another empty union cliché. Have you evacuated yet jenny@nw or are you still cheering from the grandstands?
 
Finman, it is unbelievable as to how blissfully ignorant some posters can be. Lets take jenny@nw for example, she actually thinks NWA is using "economic blackmail" to force sick pilots to work. The fact that they are not sick does not seem to register at all with her. 100% sick pay? I am just curious as to how sick pay is determined and how much of it they are eligible to receive?

This is also yet another fine example of the failure of unionism in the US. The very same pilots that walked across AMFA’s picket line without a second glance and, according to some posters here, assisted the Scabs are now receiving support from the very same posters that were bashing them during the strike for protecting their “golden parachutesâ€￾. Talk about a wishy-washy bunch.

Just a curious question for the union lackey’s? Where was this pilot sickout during AMFA’s strike?

Check this out, "Evacuate the airline!", yet another empty union cliché. Have you evacuated yet jenny@nw or are you still cheering from the grandstands?


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

BEWARE EVERYONE, of a MAJOR HEALTH RISK !!

There is an "INFECTIOUS, PUTRID, PUSS-OOZING SCAB" in our midst :down: :down: :down:

NH/BB's
 
Finman, it is unbelievable as to how blissfully ignorant some posters can be. Lets take jenny@nw for example, she actually thinks NWA is using "economic blackmail" to force sick pilots to work. The fact that they are not sick does not seem to register at all with her. 100% sick pay? I am just curious as to how sick pay is determined and how much of it they are eligible to receive?
Agreed. It's mind-boggling that people just assume that effectively over 15% of the entire workforce is legitimately too sick to work. That's the man-month equivelant of 675 pilots taking the whole month off sick. Maybe we should pass out some vitamin C or something.

Sick is paid based on the value of the trip they missed. I.E., if a pilot calls in sick for a trip that would have paid him 20 hours of total pay, he gets paid 20 hours worth of sick pay. It's paid at 100% of his hourly pay rate, unless it's his third or more sick call in a rolling 12 month period, then it gets paid at 75%.

If a pilot is on extended sick, then the pilot gets paid between 73 and 80 hours of sick pay per month, depending on the monthly max of his position for that month. The pilot has to prove that he is sick through a formal review process, but this is very easy for a pilot. I.E., bad back, medications, depression, are all common expamples that are virtually impossible to disprove.

I believe pilots now accrue 5 hours of sick per month, down from 12 hours per month prior to new contract. The average pilot has over 1000 hours of sick accrued due to the high average years of service and generous accruals received over the last 10 years, so there's plenty to burn when they need to. A lot of guys have over 2000 hours, and a common problem is 58 year old pilots going out on long term sick for the last two years of employment, since they have enough sick bank to draw from to keep them fully paid over that period. There was a 1200 hour cap on sick hours put in place with the new contract, but those with higher than that got to keep their extra; they just can't accrue any more until their balance goes below 1200 hours.
 
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