Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain

[737823]

Your off topic again, keep trying.

I guess your just a sore loser.

This is about American Airlines, not Lockheed Martin.

But the IAM did sell out the membership, read the video on your Machinists New Network and you'd see the members identified keeping the pension for new hires as priority in the negotiations (and even used an emotional appeal by having children express their interest working for the company one day) yet the leadership gave into the company. Management prevailed here no matter how you spin it.

Josh

 

[AA89]

I guess a job where you get paid extra for failure is acceptable to some people.

 

[john john]

You have no idea what you are talking about, stop posting lies and misinformation.

Josh

Your business is in the for front of what is wrong with the World and you are directly involved your wisdom and advice is a can of worms

 

[signals]

But the IAM did sell out the membersh...

Josh

I can vouch for that at NW!

 

[700UW]

Really?

The IAM members at NW faired better in chapter 11 than their non-union counterparts. How many times does Kev have to tell you all?

 

[Kev3188]

But the IAM did sell out the membership, read the video on your Machinists New Network and you'd see the members identified keeping the pension for new hires as priority in the negotiations (and even used an emotional appeal by having children express their interest working for the company one day) yet the leadership gave into the company. Management prevailed here no matter how you spin it.

Josh

Just curious: For someone that has gone on record as saying they're loathe to even let a union member in their home, why are you watching MNN?

BTW, I'm no fan of pensions in their current form- for many reasons- but that's a rant for another day.

I can vouch for that at NW!

Then we both had wicked different experiences. Maybe you can add some specifics?

Really?

The IAM members at NW faired better in chapter 11 than their non-union counterparts. How many times does Kev have to tell you all?

Yes, yes, and yes!

 

[WorldTraveler]

Really?

The IAM members at NW faired better in chapter 11 than their non-union counterparts. How many times does Kev have to tell you all?

since you and Kev keep parading this stuff out, perhaps you'd like to post the job losses by workgroup at each of the airlines that were in BK.

Publicly available data ABSOLUTELY shows that DL employees on a company wide basis had their pay cut less and had lower job losses than NW, UA, and US - and based on cuts that are likely at AA, DL employees will fare better than them as well.

It doesn't change the fact that the majority of the combined DL-NW employee workgroups did not see representation by the IAM as of value, and in fact, the IAM probably lost more members due to the DL-NW merger than in any single event in their history.

IF it makes you two feel good continuing to argue how much the IAM helped, go for it. But in the court where the truth really mattered, the IAM lost the case.

 

[700UW]

Guess you forget Delta had all ready laid off a lot of workers during leadership 7.5.

You conveniently forgot about that, didnt you?

And the dismantling of of DFW and the closing of the mtc base.

 

[Kev3188]

IF it makes you two feel good continuing to argue how much the IAM helped, go for it. But in the court where the truth really mattered, the IAM lost the case.

I am living proof that representation helped. There are thousand of others just like me.

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, I forgot about nothing. That is why the statistics use the whole decade of the 2000s since even the 4 airlines that went into BK did not do so at the same time. You can carry statistics back to deregulation if you want. DL reduced its staff less during downtimes, in part because DL has been more aggressive at growing at others' expense than their peers. Realizing that DL was the sixth largest airline when the airline was deregulated and was the largest by the end of the decade (before UA/CO's merger closed) to realize that DL has grown far more than its peers.
As I have also noted before, NW had the highest productivity - number of workers to produce the same amount of seat miles - among the network carriers well before 9/11. NW LED the network industry in improved productivity which indeed reduced the cuts NW had to make during BK but it also says that even pre-9/11, NW had already thinned its workforced.
And of course, all of these claims are great as long since you exclude the AMFA represented employees, which provided the largest reduction in costs among a single workgroup in US carrier history, even though NW managed to keep operating.

Just because DL centralized its maintenance operations in ATL more than ever, including closing DFW, does not mean that more mechanics are laid off. Statistics consistently show that DL does more of its maintenance in house than any other US airline except for AA - which is fighting for the right to outsource. Further, DL operates the largest insourcing operation among airlines in the Americas - currently doing insourced work equal to 1/4 of the value of what DL spends to maintain its own fleet.

Kev,
I am glad that IAM saved your job and I also believed that they helped break the paradigm that small cities could not be profitable for companies unless they were outsourced.... but anectodal evidence does not make or break a point, even if it is yours.
.
The statistics overwhelmingly show that unionized employee groups took bigger cuts in BK than the non-union employees at DL. Given that BK is THE opportunity to rewrite union contracts, it is not surprising that no airline missed the opportunity.
And as I have also noted, the reason why DL cut less is because they are the only airline that grew itself through BK - they gained efficiencies by growing, not by cutting their existing employees as much as their peers.

Because the sample size of airlines who have restructured in BK is pretty small, no one can accurately say that being unionized or IAM represented or not resulted in fewer benefits because there are too many other factors at play.

Statistics do show that DL employees fared better in BK than their peers at other network carriers - but DL also had a much more aggressive plan to emerge from BK and change its business model than any other carrier.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,
I am glad that IAM saved your job and I also believed that they helped break the paradigm that small cities could not be profitable for companies unless they were outsourced.... but anectodal evidence does not make or break a point, even if it is yours.

It is not anecdotal, and it is not confined just to me, or people in non-hub cities.

The statistics overwhelmingly show that unionized employee groups took bigger cuts in BK than the non-union employees at DL.

Perhaps that's because the unionized employees at DL (pilots & dispatch) also happened to have the highest total compensation of any other scale group.

And as I have also noted, the reason why DL cut less is because they are the only airline that grew itself through BK - they gained efficiencies by growing, not by cutting their existing employees as much as their peers.

By '05 there wasn't that much left to cut in ACS for DL; they'd already taken a chainsaw to most of the network during 7.5. Speaking of that work group, where's the organic growth I keep hearing about?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Even if we found hundreds of anecdotes, and they surely exist, it doesn't change the fact that NW simply spread the cuts throughout the company and kept many smaller stations as mainline staffed that other airlines outsourced.

DL's ACS operation was just as proportionately larger than NW as was every other workgroup..... DL ACS was no smaller relative to NW ACS than any other group. Had DL ACS been smaller, the IAM probably could have won the representation election.
DL's ACS operations were concentrated in hubs which were larger.

DL ACS had well over 10K employees pre-merger; combined isn't ACS today about 20K?

DL has reduced ACS cuts post-merger by taking over DCI handling in several hubs even though system capacity is shrinking w/ higher fuel prices.

Statistics show the staffing reductions and productivity improvements at all airlines; NW had the lowest cuts among the heavily unionized airlines because they started earlier while DL fared better overall. But NW started its cuts and pushed productivity much earlier than other carriers while DL went into a high-growth mode in BK which allowed them to reduce cuts.

Neither strategy was comparable to what UA or US did or what AA has done or said it will do now.

It also doesn't change the fact that NW's entire network was disproportionately large in certain parts of the country which made it alot easier to find 20-30 medium sized cities that justified mainline staffing.
From a network perspective, DL was in the same position.... DL and NW combined served more small cities than any other airline in the US - and I think that is still true even after the UA/CO merger.
The 717 deal will help increase mainline service in DL's network today - including PMNW's network - what NW did in the upper midwest... and which DL served via RJs.

Keep in mind also that NW's big expansion with RJs came during BK while other carriers including DL did it much earlier. The economics of the DC9 fleet deteriorated to the point they could not be profitable after NW filed for BK - and NW had plans to reduce the DC9 fleet long before the merger.

Network strategy had a huge impact on how ACS was staffed.

But it was also NW's concentrated network that made it necessary for them to merge.

Pilots at ALL airlines took larger cuts than other employees - because they were higher compensated BEFORE. It is also why DL pilots NOW are gaining larger pay increases than non-pilot personnel.

 

[signals]

Really?

The IAM members at NW faired better in chapter 11 than their non-union counterparts. How many times does Kev have to tell you all?

Then that must be what NWA workers meant that they would have made out better if they moved, or bumped(?), to a major hub.

Then we both had wicked different experiences. Maybe you can add some specifics?

In my area, former NWA employees were replaced by Air Wisconsin. Maybe as a whole IAM members made out, but small areas were outsourced,and many former employees either moved or moved on.

 

[signals]

since you and Kev keep parading this stuff out, perhaps you'd like to post the job losses by workgroup at each of the airlines that were in BK.

Publicly available data ABSOLUTELY shows that DL employees on a company wide basis had their pay cut less and had lower job losses than NW, UA, and US - and based on cuts that are likely at AA, DL employees will fare better than them as well.

It doesn't change the fact that the majority of the combined DL-NW employee workgroups did not see representation by the IAM as of value, and in fact, the IAM probably lost more members due to the DL-NW merger than in any single event in their history.

IF it makes you two feel good continuing to argue how much the IAM helped, go for it. But in the court where the truth really mattered, the IAM lost the case.

This question goes out to anyone, but I am using WT's quote. IF NWA had retained the jobs lost, would the unionized IAM have had a closer number of employees to the non-union majority?

 

[737823]

Just curious: For someone that has gone on record as saying they're loathe to even let a union member in their home, why are you watching MNN?

BTW, I'm no fan of pensions in their current form- for many reasons- but that's a rant for another day.

Same reason I post here. I enjoy hearing alternative perspectives and an opportunity to get my mind off family and work and the segments can be entertaining at times.

And just to be clear-I think loathe is a very strong word. I'm certainly no proponent of unions but do respect others' desires for representation. If anything participating in this forum and reading other articles and materials about unions has enlightened me and opened me to your perspective. Don't necessarily agree but I respect your preferences. Would rather be non-union myself and see more businesses go that direction.

Josh