Not correct. Everyone has the option to retire early. Just that by Federal law a pilot must retire at 60.
Question on Pilot Pension Termination
- Thread starter kiloromeo
- Start date
Wrong! The PBGC will not begin payments prior to the earliest age of retirement per the contract under which the plan terminates. In most instances it is age 55. However, after Eastern's bankruptcy the PBGC created an amendment to lower the age for airline pilots only to age 50.
You know,
All of these forcasts. Anything out more than three months in these times is just reading the tea leaves.
Less than a year ago, Wolf said we would be cash net.
Don't go out and buy that new car!
All of these forcasts. Anything out more than three months in these times is just reading the tea leaves.
Less than a year ago, Wolf said we would be cash net.
Don't go out and buy that new car!
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 6:31:14 PM mlt wrote: [BR][BR]Wrong! The PBGC will not begin payments prior to the earliest age of retirement per the contract under which the plan terminates. In most instances it is age 55. However, after Eastern's bankruptcy the PBGC created an amendment to lower the age for airline pilots only to age 50. ----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]I think YOU'RE wrong. The only reason pilots can retire at 50 is because that is in OUR contract. If it was in yours , then you would be allowed to also. The PBGC doesn't set the retirement age, all they do is set a maximum amount that you can collect at certain ages. It's based, I assume, on the same tables used to compute life insurance premiums for people at different ages. There are career fields with 20 year retirements where folks could conceiveably retire in their mid 40's. Under the PBGC they could still retire, but with the outlook to collect over a much longer period, the monthly amount is a lot less. They only publish the tables for certain ages, and those tables only show the MAXIMUM amount you can receive. The PBGC calculates and sends the individual the ACTUAL amount they can receive after the plan terminates.
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 6:31:14 PM mlt wrote: [BR][BR]Wrong! The PBGC will not begin payments prior to the earliest age of retirement per the contract under which the plan terminates. In most instances it is age 55. However, after Eastern's bankruptcy the PBGC created an amendment to lower the age for airline pilots only to age 50. ----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]I think YOU'RE wrong. The only reason pilots can retire at 50 is because that is in OUR contract. If it was in yours , then you would be allowed to also. The PBGC doesn't set the retirement age, all they do is set a maximum amount that you can collect at certain ages. It's based, I assume, on the same tables used to compute life insurance premiums for people at different ages. There are career fields with 20 year retirements where folks could conceiveably retire in their mid 40's. Under the PBGC they could still retire, but with the outlook to collect over a much longer period, the monthly amount is a lot less. They only publish the tables for certain ages, and those tables only show the MAXIMUM amount you can receive. The PBGC calculates and sends the individual the ACTUAL amount they can receive after the plan terminates.
OldiebutGoodie,[BR]Please reference Code of Federal Regulations Section 4022--Benefits Payable In Terminated Single-Employer Plans.[BR][BR]Section 4022.10--Earliest PBGC Retirement Date.[BR][BR]Section 4022.10 (B) If the earliest date on which a participant could separate from service with the right to receive an immediate annuity is before the date the participant reaches age 55, the Earliest PBGC Retirement Date for the participant is the date the partcipant reaches age 55 (exceptions in paragraph c).[BR][BR]Section 4022.10 (d-6). Typical airline pilots' plan--synopsis age 50.
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
He AGREED to a reduced pension benefit in our LOA 84 which was the second round of givebacks. The one in which we AGREED to give up the lump sum. How could he agree to that if there was NO MONEY? He didn't say "we have no money and must terminate the pension". He already AGREED to it in December. All we want is what he AGREED to. What don't you understand about that?
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He also told the IAM he wouldn't be back, but he came back saying it's more or 7.
I don't care WHAT Dave said, if the company is broke, it's broke.
So, what don't the pilots understand about that.
This is a hell of a time to be playing the will/mind game when the fact is the company can't support what the pilots want whether or not Dave made a promise. Your attitude of, well, we made enough money in the past for this sort of thing and we will fight, that is just the opposite of Chip's preaching to everyone to quit if they can't handle reality, and to stop being selfish so everyone else can make a living. Now that the shoe is on the other foot the world is a different place we all see just how damn selfish your crowd really is. You all better have a big nest egg because I believe your mind game will be the end of your careers, and this shaky airline.
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He also told the IAM he wouldn't be back, but he came back saying it's more or 7.
I don't care WHAT Dave said, if the company is broke, it's broke.
So, what don't the pilots understand about that.
This is a hell of a time to be playing the will/mind game when the fact is the company can't support what the pilots want whether or not Dave made a promise. Your attitude of, well, we made enough money in the past for this sort of thing and we will fight, that is just the opposite of Chip's preaching to everyone to quit if they can't handle reality, and to stop being selfish so everyone else can make a living. Now that the shoe is on the other foot the world is a different place we all see just how damn selfish your crowd really is. You all better have a big nest egg because I believe your mind game will be the end of your careers, and this shaky airline.
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/22/2003 8:34:04 AM mlt wrote:
[P]OldiebutGoodie,[BR]Please reference Code of Federal Regulations Section 4022--Benefits Payable In Terminated Single-Employer Plans.[BR][BR]Section 4022.10--Earliest PBGC Retirement Date.[BR][BR]Section 4022.10 (B) If the earliest date on which a participant could separate from service with the right to receive an immediate annuity is before the date the participant reaches age 55, the Earliest PBGC Retirement Date for the participant is the date the partcipant reaches age 55 (exceptions in paragraph c).[BR][BR]Section 4022.10 (d-6). Typical airline pilots' plan--synopsis age 50.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Wrong again...[BR]I quote from page 81458...[BR][BR][FONT class=ImportantWords]A plan's normal retirement age is age 60. The plan specifies an early retirement age of 50 but offers an immediate annuity upon separation regardless of age. The Earliest PBGC Retirement Date for a 35-year-old participant would be the date the participant reaches age 55, unless the PBGC determines under the facts and circumstances that the participant could retire for purposes of ERISA section 4044(a)(3)(B) on an earlier date, in which case the Earliest PBGC Retirement Date would be that earlier date. For example, if it were common for participants to retire at age 50, the PBGC could determine that the Earliest PBGC Retirement Date for the participant would be the date the participant reaches age 50. A plan's normal retirement age is age 65. The plan offers an immediate annuity upon separation regardless of age and a fully-subsidized annuity upon separation with 30 years of service. The Earliest PBGC Retirement Date for a 35-year-old participant would be the date the participant reaches age 55, unless the PBGC determines under the facts and circumstances that the participant could retire for purposes of ERISA section 4044(a)(3)(B) on an earlier date, in which case the Earliest PBGC Retirement Date would be that earlier date. In this example, the PBGC generally would determine under the facts and circumstances that a participant could retire for purposes of ERISA section 4044(a)(3)(B) on the date the participant becomes eligible for this ``30-and-out'' benefit, regardless of the participant's age (e.g., the date a 48-year-old participant who started work at age 18 completes 30 years of service). If so, that date would be the participant's Earliest PBGC Retirement Date (if it is before the date the participant reaches age 55).[BR][/FONT]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/22/2003 8:34:04 AM mlt wrote:
[P]OldiebutGoodie,[BR]Please reference Code of Federal Regulations Section 4022--Benefits Payable In Terminated Single-Employer Plans.[BR][BR]Section 4022.10--Earliest PBGC Retirement Date.[BR][BR]Section 4022.10 (B) If the earliest date on which a participant could separate from service with the right to receive an immediate annuity is before the date the participant reaches age 55, the Earliest PBGC Retirement Date for the participant is the date the partcipant reaches age 55 (exceptions in paragraph c).[BR][BR]Section 4022.10 (d-6). Typical airline pilots' plan--synopsis age 50.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Wrong again...[BR]I quote from page 81458...[BR][BR][FONT class=ImportantWords]A plan's normal retirement age is age 60. The plan specifies an early retirement age of 50 but offers an immediate annuity upon separation regardless of age. The Earliest PBGC Retirement Date for a 35-year-old participant would be the date the participant reaches age 55, unless the PBGC determines under the facts and circumstances that the participant could retire for purposes of ERISA section 4044(a)(3)(B) on an earlier date, in which case the Earliest PBGC Retirement Date would be that earlier date. For example, if it were common for participants to retire at age 50, the PBGC could determine that the Earliest PBGC Retirement Date for the participant would be the date the participant reaches age 50. A plan's normal retirement age is age 65. The plan offers an immediate annuity upon separation regardless of age and a fully-subsidized annuity upon separation with 30 years of service. The Earliest PBGC Retirement Date for a 35-year-old participant would be the date the participant reaches age 55, unless the PBGC determines under the facts and circumstances that the participant could retire for purposes of ERISA section 4044(a)(3)(B) on an earlier date, in which case the Earliest PBGC Retirement Date would be that earlier date. In this example, the PBGC generally would determine under the facts and circumstances that a participant could retire for purposes of ERISA section 4044(a)(3)(B) on the date the participant becomes eligible for this ``30-and-out'' benefit, regardless of the participant's age (e.g., the date a 48-year-old participant who started work at age 18 completes 30 years of service). If so, that date would be the participant's Earliest PBGC Retirement Date (if it is before the date the participant reaches age 55).[BR][/FONT]
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
I assure you, I'm NOT Jerry Glass. Only a person interested in TRUTH. You said in an earlier post that you and your group were being discriminated against since you can't retire at 50. I just straightened out the facts you presented. If you feel that the government is discriminating, then you should pursue it in court. If anything, pilots are being discriminated against in this situation, since even though the same premium is paid on their retirement dollars, they can only receive a MUCH SMALLER percentage of their retirement pay. That's the issue.
delldude
Veteran
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/22/2003 8:31:11 AM oldiebutgoody wrote:
[P]Doesn't matter what your argument is. No pension, no pilots, no airline. Simple as that. [/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P][EM][FONT face="Comic Sans MS"]YOU GUYS REMIND ME OF A FELLOW I WORK WITH.....HE NEEDS 2 MORE YEARS SO HE CAN RETIRE ,BUT HE'D VOTE NO ON CONCESSIONS AND VOTE HIMSELF ON THE STREET. CAN'T AFFORD TO RETIRE BUT CAN AFFORD TO GIVE IT ALL AWAY.GET REAL WILL YOU?[/FONT][/EM]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/22/2003 8:31:11 AM oldiebutgoody wrote:
[P]Doesn't matter what your argument is. No pension, no pilots, no airline. Simple as that. [/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P][EM][FONT face="Comic Sans MS"]YOU GUYS REMIND ME OF A FELLOW I WORK WITH.....HE NEEDS 2 MORE YEARS SO HE CAN RETIRE ,BUT HE'D VOTE NO ON CONCESSIONS AND VOTE HIMSELF ON THE STREET. CAN'T AFFORD TO RETIRE BUT CAN AFFORD TO GIVE IT ALL AWAY.GET REAL WILL YOU?[/FONT][/EM]
OldiebutGoodie,[BR]You quoted from exception c which I referenced above. In most cases the earliest retirement is age 55. [BR][BR]I posted this once before and I will repeat myself. You write with the same venom which Jerry Glass speaks. I believe there is a connection. Doing a little [STRONG]UNION BUSTING[/STRONG] on company time? Attempting to pit the groups against each other?
So let me get this straight, everybody else at U lost their pension and continued on, now the pilots are going to lose their pension and we are going to close the doors? Sounds pretty selfish.
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
By the way, [BR]I voted "yes" for parity + 1. Just like ALPA requested that we do. And, you may get your wish!
Whoever You Are:[BR][BR]The game's over. [STRONG]I CALL YOUR BLUFF! SHUT IT DOWN![BR][BR][/STRONG]If you are Jerry Glass (and I believe you are) you wouldn't dare shut it down...you and the boys at the Crystal Palace would leave as the 'team that couldn't get it done'. But then again, you have that little part-time job at JA Glass & Associates to pay your health insurance.[BR][BR]If you are a pilot, I want to see your no vote. Historically ALPA crumbles when it is time to stand up. During the last section 6 (parity +1) every pilot then and to this day swears they voted no, yet the contract passed overwhelmingly (I believe the yes votes were in the 80% range). I wonder how many corporate jobs there are for the over the hill gang?[BR][BR]Again, [STRONG]I CALL YOUR BLUFF![/STRONG]
I think the problem is the age of the pilot group. most are so close to 60 years old that if the pension is terminated they have no hope of ever regaining any thing for their retirement.
Close to half the still active pilot group is over 50. It does not matter if there are other jobs avalible or not, at 60 they are done in the airlines and very few corporate jobs have any retirment bennies. So what we have is the majority of the pilots are backed into a corner so to speak. Concessions are one thing and they had no problem with give backs. This is something completly different.
What I have seen on the alpa boards and talking with some of the still active guys is they feel Dave flat out lied to them to get the last round of concessions and is now trying again. It is seen as taking away retirment that "has already been earned" And I keep hearing guys talking about no chance to ever make up anykind of retirment in the few years they have left.
They seem to feel taking the chance on ch-7 and getting some of the carcus during the breakup is better than giving it up and having nothing. It is seen as A: Give up pension=work at walmart as greeter until 75 B: Do not give up pension and airline shuts down= Decent chance of some pension evolving from the liquidation C: Company caves in and backs off of this issue= Pensions intact, and company survives. Most I have talked to feel that option A is not an option at all.
I hope it can be fixed, but from what I have seen and heard I am 95% sure that the pilots will park the planes if the company continues on this course. The pilot group was willing to do alot to keep the airline going (They have alot to lose) but this issue WILL kill the airline if it is not corrected. If the furloughees were still active and could vote it would be close. With all the guys under the age of 40 laid-off it is a death sentance for U.
Close to half the still active pilot group is over 50. It does not matter if there are other jobs avalible or not, at 60 they are done in the airlines and very few corporate jobs have any retirment bennies. So what we have is the majority of the pilots are backed into a corner so to speak. Concessions are one thing and they had no problem with give backs. This is something completly different.
What I have seen on the alpa boards and talking with some of the still active guys is they feel Dave flat out lied to them to get the last round of concessions and is now trying again. It is seen as taking away retirment that "has already been earned" And I keep hearing guys talking about no chance to ever make up anykind of retirment in the few years they have left.
They seem to feel taking the chance on ch-7 and getting some of the carcus during the breakup is better than giving it up and having nothing. It is seen as A: Give up pension=work at walmart as greeter until 75 B: Do not give up pension and airline shuts down= Decent chance of some pension evolving from the liquidation C: Company caves in and backs off of this issue= Pensions intact, and company survives. Most I have talked to feel that option A is not an option at all.
I hope it can be fixed, but from what I have seen and heard I am 95% sure that the pilots will park the planes if the company continues on this course. The pilot group was willing to do alot to keep the airline going (They have alot to lose) but this issue WILL kill the airline if it is not corrected. If the furloughees were still active and could vote it would be close. With all the guys under the age of 40 laid-off it is a death sentance for U.
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