Question on Pilot Pension Termination

[savyinvestor]

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On 1/22/2003 11:56:10 AM ONTHESTREET wrote:

I think the problem is the age of the pilot group. most are so close to 60 years old that if the pension is terminated they have no hope of ever regaining any thing for their retirement.

Close to half the still active pilot group is over 50. It does not matter if there are other jobs avalible or not, at 60 they are done in the airlines and very few corporate jobs have any retirment bennies. So what we have is the majority of the pilots are backed into a corner so to speak. Concessions are one thing and they had no problem with give backs. This is something completly different.

What I have seen on the alpa boards and talking with some of the still active guys is they feel Dave flat out lied to them to get the last round of concessions and is now trying again. It is seen as taking away retirment that "has already been earned" And I keep hearing guys talking about no chance to ever make up anykind of retirment in the few years they have left.

They seem to feel taking the chance on ch-7 and getting some of the carcus during the breakup is better than giving it up and having nothing. It is seen as A: Give up pension=work at walmart as greeter until 75 B: Do not give up pension and airline shuts down= Decent chance of some pension evolving from the liquidation C: Company caves in and backs off of this issue= Pensions intact, and company survives. Most I have talked to feel that option A is not an option at all.

I hope it can be fixed, but from what I have seen and heard I am 95% sure that the pilots will park the planes if the company continues on this course. The pilot group was willing to do alot to keep the airline going (They have alot to lose) but this issue WILL kill the airline if it is not corrected. If the furloughees were still active and could vote it would be close. With all the guys under the age of 40 laid-off it is a death sentance for U.
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[/blockquote]
From what I've read on these boards is that the pilots haved saved tons of money in case someting like this ever happened, they have other business interests to keep them financially stable, so by closing down the company they put the other thousands not so well off out of a job. Check the posts on this site if you don't believe me. Sad, but true. Savy

 

[Biffeman]

What you all seem to fail to see is the PBGC is the one who will terminate your pension, not the company, if the company cannot find a funding solution it will be gone, which is going to cause yor pension to go bye bye. Welcome to the real world. Numerous pilots on here were waving pom poms and telling us to take one for the team, well it is your turn now and you don't like it. But as Chip would say, if you don't like it quit!

 

[ONTHESTREET]

I don't think ALPA ever told other groups what to do. Chip is NOT Alpa. He speaks for himself, not me, or any other pilot. Do not confuse Chips "suggestions" with that of the pilot group.

 

[mrplanes]

Biffy:

Chip was telling you no such thing. He was relating what he thought would happen if you voted no. He was not TELLING you how to vote. Only the consequences of the no vote. Check the posts.

As for this situation we (the pilots) are telling you what will happen if Dave doesn't live up to his committment. Plain and simple. Many here fail to understand our collective will on this one. We did what he asked. We (as you) agreed to all his conditions and cuts. Now, after agreeing (both he and we) to a reduced pension in LOA 84, he says it is out of his control. What is going to be out of his control will be the continuation of this airline with these pilots if he reneges on his committment. I assure you of that. What happens if or when we stop flying the jets will depend on how many scabs they can hire and train before the funding runs out. My guess is a C7 in very short order.

We do not WANT this but we are prepared for it. Dave Seigel has the ability AND FUNDS to live up to his promise. If he does we become a kick*** airline. If he doesn't we become history. It is that simple.

mr

 

[Biffeman]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/22/2003 12:33:36 PM autofixer wrote:
[P]Savyinvestor, So are implying the pilots owe the other employees a job? The pilots should just suck it up so everyone else at U (Who by the way, do not give a rats arse about pilots; as has been evident on these boards.) can continue to have their jobs subsidized? [/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]That is what Chip and his ALPA brothers were telling the IAM, AFA and CWA to do!

 

[autofixer]

Savyinvestor, So are implying the pilots owe the other employees a job? The pilots should just suck it up so everyone else at U (Who by the way, do not give a rats arse about pilots; as has been evident on these boards.) can continue to have their jobs subsidized?

 

[PITbull]

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On 1/22/2003 12:57:06 PM mrplanes wrote:

Biffy:

Chip was telling you no such thing. He was relating what he thought would happen if you voted no. He was not TELLING you how to vote. Only the consequences of the no vote. Check the posts.

As for this situation we (the pilots) are telling you what will happen if Dave doesn't live up to his committment. Plain and simple. Many here fail to understand our collective will on this one. We did what he asked. We (as you) agreed to all his conditions and cuts. Now, after agreeing (both he and we) to a reduced pension in LOA 84, he says it is out of his control. What is going to be out of his control will be the continuation of this airline with these pilots if he reneges on his committment. I assure you of that. What happens if or when we stop flying the jets will depend on how many scabs they can hire and train before the funding runs out. My guess is a C7 in very short order.

We do not WANT this but we are prepared for it. Dave Seigel has the ability AND FUNDS to live up to his promise. If he does we become a kick*** airline. If he doesn't we become history. It is that simple.

mr
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[/blockquote]

What I find amazing is that your retorhic of past was that certain "union" leaders were taking a "hard stand" against the co., especially this last go round. You expressed in previous threads that to say "NO" would be a foolish thing in light of the fact that A job is better than NO job. I think you referred to one specific union leader as "troubled Teddy", who was living in the PAST and wasn't dealing with "reality" because of her "strong position" she expressed to her members of her local.

You see, some labor groups have reached there "threshold in this LAST proposals and were willing to take a stand and say "enough is enough" "shut it down". Now, ALPA is reaching their "threshold" and are NOW taking a hard line stance, specifically YOU. Your sentiments of help save others jobs and vote YES on the last round, has changed with YOUR issue and I don't blame you. I commend you for finally "coming into view", with this management team that I believe didn't deserve a "chance" the last go round. I will not turn away with "deaf ears" from the pilots. I understand very well your feelings and I will not critisize your strong position for what you believe, and the betrayl that you feel.Or putting everything on the line for what you believe is right. I respect that.

I bring this up to you now to make the point that most of us felt what your feeling just one month ago.

Welcome to our world.... is all I want to express.

 

[Biffeman]

I said Chip and his ALPA brothers, never said ALPA took that line. Go back and read the post.

 

[Biffeman]

Mr Planes, you have no rights.[BR]The PBGC is a federal corporation, they will terminate your plan, not the company. You can't strike, it would be a wildcat, illegal under the RLA, you cant cause a sickout or slowdown or US will sue you like AA did to APA and bankrupt your union. It is a crappy situatution and you are not in a position of power. What happens next is up to the PBGC, and you will most likily lose your pension and then ALPA and the company will be forced to negotiate a replacement plan.[BR][BR]Chip is spouting 1113 1113, the company does not need to file any motion, the PBGC can legally terminate the plan and there is nothing ALPA or US can do.

 

[savyinvestor]

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On 1/22/2003 12:33:36 PM autofixer wrote:

Savyinvestor, So are implying the pilots owe the other employees a job? The pilots should just suck it up so everyone else at U (Who by the way, do not give a rats arse about pilots; as has been evident on these boards.) can continue to have their jobs subsidized?
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[/blockquote]
It seems to me the insults have gone both ways. From what I've read it would be more devasting to the other employee groups to lose their jobs. Also, I've read many a post by pilots brow beating others to take cuts or quit. It seems the pilots have other avenues of income and I guess I would like to save the many and inconvience, but not destroy the pilots. Savy

 

[chipmunn]

Biff:

You are 100 percent wrong and I have communicated with the MEC. The pilot resolve is unlike ever before and we are prepared for any type of action necessary.

We lead the employees and gave up 46 percent of our wages and benefits so every body can keep their job. Now it's time for the Company to find a solution to this problem or the airline may be forced to liquidate.

Mlt, you may get your wish. It's almost over.

Chip

 

[Biffeman]

[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/22/2003 2:03:18 PM chipmunn wrote: [BR][BR]Biff:[BR][BR]You are 100 percent wrong and I have communicated with the MEC. The pilot resolve is unlike ever before and we are prepared for any type of action necessary.[BR][BR]We lead the employees and gave up 46 percent of our wages and benefits so every body can keep their job. Now it's time for the Company to find a solution to this problem or the airline may be forced to liquidate.[BR][BR]Mlt, you may get your wish. It's almost over.[BR][BR]Chip----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]Yes Chip and you got 33% raises for two years previous to that, no sympathy from other groups and once the PBGC terminates your contract, go out and strike, you will be fired, replaced and sued, go ask the APA what happened to them at AA over the Reno Air sickout.[BR][BR]And this is the same MEC that disavowed you after your article filled with lies about the CWA and IAM. Never seen a union before release a statement about a member. Plus your comm rep called me at home to assure me that you did not speak for the MEC nor ALPA. Your MEC knows all about you.

 

[tadjr]

I'm not one for getting in too much of a huff over these things, but after all the "just vote yes or leave" posters here the last few months, I have one thing to say.[BR]Chip, take your degree and job offers and leave if you dont like it. Its that simple isnt it? Isnt this EXACTLY what you were telling us all to do just earlier this month? [BR]Maybe it would be best to take all this to the ALPA only board because you are NOT going to be getting much sympathy here.[BR]I dont have a pilot envy, I dont have a problem with any of the pilots I've met or worked with (with few minor exceptions) and there is nothing I can do to help you out. I am just sick and tired of hearing how things could be if we didnt suck it up (even though we were talking about CURRENT WAGES AND LIVING TODAY, not even able to think about retirement) and now its time to suck it up one more time and you dont want to play. [BR]So now that its ALPA thats gonna shut the company down its ok?[BR][BR]

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You're right, they don't have to file an 1113 action. All they would have to do is guarantee the same level of benefits for retirees. Wouldn't matter how they got them. Anything less is a violation of the pilot contract, and would require an 1113 action. It doesn't matter how the plan terminates, the contract is between the company and the pilots, NOT the government and the pilots. The contract doesn't specify how retirees get the benefits, just that they do. Any change in the substance of the agreement requires either a new agreement with the pilots or court action. Remember something though. The pilots already agreed to at least a 17% reduction in retirement, (capped at 50% of earning rather than 65%), plus most will make substantially less due to the paycuts, reducing that number even more.

 

[PITbull]

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On 1/22/2003 2:03:18 PM chipmunn wrote:

Biff:

You are 100 percent wrong and I have communicated with the MEC. The pilot resolve is unlike ever before and we are prepared for any type of action necessary.

We lead the employees and gave up 46 percent of our wages and benefits so every body can keep their job. Now it's time for the Company to find a solution to this problem or the airline may be forced to liquidate.

Mlt, you may get your wish. It's almost over.

Chip
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I am sorry Chip, but you say pilots gave 46% of your wages to save our jobs, is a very disingenous statement if ever there was one. Why I say this?

1)You guys gave first round mostly cash which brought you to before the 36% pariety increases you guys got as a "windfall" from the United pilots negotiated contract. That 36% increase in a 13 month time frame. That by default made your pension liability for the co. "go through the roof". Which, in my opinion brought us to this dire positon for ALL labor groups giving even if some groups were in line or below other major players (carriers).We all had to make major sacrifices because the co. was concerned if they only target the pilots, the pilots would less likely e apt to give. Well, what this management didn't kow is that your union reps made it SO EASY FOR THE CO. TO GET THAT, THAT THEY CAME AGAIN TWO MONTHS LATER, AND YOU GUYS STILL DIDN'T BEG FOR MERCY. You guys negotiated within 5 days (record breaking) right up thin kister, which dragged the rest of us in. You guys put in your agreement that if ALL labor groups didn'tratify, that your ratified would be voided. So, you dragged us in again (I am repeating that twice to make sure you read it).

2)You say it was to save OUR jobs! I can't believe you say that expect anyone on this board to believe your insencerity. YOU WERE ONLY SAVING YOURSELF AND YOUR PENSION! The truth now manifests itself with the still "looming" Pilot pension delimma, and now your threatening everyone with the pilots taking ACTION to close this airline down.

I say, "more power to you", and thanks for saving me for a minute; that was too kind!