Seeking Info Please

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/8/2003 6:07:48 PM siucstudent wrote:

My questions are:

1. Have your unions or has the company clearly outlined the Tentative Agreement?

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Yes, we have an outline and basic structure of what the TA entail. Right now Each union and the AA''s HR and legal department are working out the language details.

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On 4/8/2003 6:07:48 PM siucstudent wrote
2. Why such a bitter relationship between unions within the same company?
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There is not a bitter relationship between the unions. There is always competition for our share of the pie come contract time. When APFA was out on strike APA and TWU were right there supporting us 100%.

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On 4/8/2003 6:07:48 PM siucstudent wrote

3. I understand that your unions are members of the AFL-CIO correct? You hold the keys to the aircraft that transport, and make up the very backbone of this nations economy. Then why are you allowing your individual and collective skills to be inslaved as they are?

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The APA and APFA are independent unions with no AFL-CIO affiliation. Only one on the property affiliated is the TWU.
I am not sure how you think we are being enslaved.

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On 4/8/2003 6:07:48 PM siucstudent wrote
5. Do you see ReRegulation?
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No, Airlines would then become for the goverment a new AMTRAK.


Thanks,
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL




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[siucstudent]

If I may, I found your board by searching the web for current news on the industry to complete a required assignment for my Labor Relations course here at SIUC''s Aviation program. It appears AA may be next for the BK chopping block. Before posting I spent hours reading posts in all current threads.

My questions are:

1. Have your unions or has the company clearly outlined the Tentative Agreement?

2. Why such a bitter relationship between unions within the same company?

3. I understand that your unions are members of the AFL-CIO correct? You hold the keys to the aircraft that transport, and make up the very backbone of this nations economy. Then why are you allowing your individual and collective skills to be inslaved as they are?

4. Please describe a typical 8 hour shift for a aircraft maintenance mechanic at both the bases and at an out station. Is a full 8 hours pay fully earned? I hear rumors and have recieved emails confirming sleeping after 2-3 hours of light work. Is this true?

5. Do you see ReRegulation?

Thanks,
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL

 

[siucstudent]

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On 4/8/2003 7:28:46 PM WXGuesser wrote:


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SIUC:

There is a third choice. People can leave. However, that is also an unpleasant choice. Do you realize how good the pay and bennies are for an airline?



So do you have any suggestions? What does your coursework and your books say the unions should do? Strike?



TANSTAAFL

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I will be the first to tell you my experience is in the classroom, the books, the lectures by those who have been there. I appreciate your point. My point is that what I am being taught here is not happening. You are all caving to a political corporate machine. Stand up for your skills and your experience. Solidarity????

Mayor Daley said he destroyed Meigs for security purposes. Our president and your corporate execs are wearing that same 9/11 excuse thin as well as throwing in a little LUV and JetBlue in the mix. Sheep I tell you.

I would like to have an industry to come to some day. I look forward to the pay the bennies as well. But I know going in, that I will be taking a risk as stated by another board member here. So going in I know that my success depends solely on seniority and my labor group, true. So stand up. You knew it didnt you.

SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL

 

[siucstudent]

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On 4/8/2003 6:27:16 PM FA Mikey wrote:

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On 4/8/2003 6:07:48 PM siucstudent wrote:


The APA and APFA are independent unions with no AFL-CIO affiliation. Only one on the property affiliated is the TWU.
I am not sure how you think we are being enslaved.
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On 4/8/2003 6:07:48 PM siucstudent wrote

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I am sorry let me clarify. You stated that you only have one AFL-CIO affiliated union on board. That does somewhat explain your lack of power on the US organized labor front. Although the organized labor effort in this country is facing the harshest political and corportate power in history. When I say enslaved I am referring to both the choices you are presented with, BK or severe concessions. Concessions without a new look in say two or three years. Concessions with an annual increase less than the current cost of living increase. You have no choice. You appear enslaved.

SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL

 

[siucstudent]

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We are not lacking power for our own members or agenda. For example, APFA has successfully kept Kitt Bond from attaching his TWA seniority bill to every appropriation he has attempted too. As far as enslaved goes, we are to some extent. And it has as much to do with the economy as anything else. Our analyst have looked at the books. It our present form AA cannot survive. We may not have a financial trigger in the TA or an early out clause. This is likely this is what''s needed to maintain sufficient financing to starve off BK. We may at this point be down, we are by no means out. We will return the company to its feet, achieve parity in members pay and QAL.

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We have vaguely discussed the seniority issue here at school between TWA and AA. Every time it comes up we students shoot down the conversation by stating that GPA, ACT scores, attendance, respect toward authority should not be involved in labor relations courses. The true determination of our successes in this field will only rely on who is in the door first.

Yes I hope that the employees union leaders do negotiate a contract from there current rates now. But remember 6 years concession plus 2 years negotiating equals 8 years.

SIUC Student

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/8/2003 6:42:52 PM siucstudent wrote:

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I am sorry let me clarify. You stated that you only have one AFL-CIO affiliated union on board. That does somewhat explain your lack of power on the US organized labor front. Although the organized labor effort in this country is facing the harshest political and corportate power in history. When I say enslaved I am referring to both the choices you are presented with, BK or severe concessions. Concessions without a new look in say two or three years. Concessions with an annual increase less than the current cost of living increase. You have no choice. You appear enslaved.

SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL


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We are not lacking power for our own members or agenda. For example, APFA has successfully kept Kitt Bond from attaching his TWA seniority bill to every appropriation he has attempted too. As far as enslaved goes, we are to some extent. And it has as much to do with the economy as anything else. Our analyst have looked at the books. It our present form AA cannot survive. We may not have a financial trigger in the TA or an early out clause. This is likely this is what''s needed to maintain sufficient financing to starve off BK. We may at this point be down, we are by no means out. We will return the company to its feet, achieve parity in members pay and QAL.

 

[WXGuesser]

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On 4/8/2003 6:42:52 PM siucstudent wrote:

I am sorry let me clarify. You stated that you only have one AFL-CIO affiliated union on board. That does somewhat explain your lack of power on the US organized labor front. Although the organized labor effort in this country is facing the harshest political and corportate power in history. When I say enslaved I am referring to both the choices you are presented with, BK or severe concessions. Concessions without a new look in say two or three years. Concessions with an annual increase less than the current cost of living increase. You have no choice. You appear enslaved.

SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL


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SIUC:

There is a third choice. People can leave. However, that is also an unpleasant choice. Do you realize how good the pay and bennies are for an airline?

The bitter relationships is not between the unions; it is between individual people who are trying to protect their particular piece of the pie instead of trying to save the company for the good of all. You want bitter relationships between unions? Go look over at UAL or USAir''s board and see what their boards looked like during their pre-bankruptcy times. This place has not even begun to get vicious...

So do you have any suggestions? What does your coursework and your books say the unions should do? Strike?



TANSTAAFL

 

[aislehopper]

In this industry, there is an ebb and flow in the power of organized labor. In the late 1990''s, organized labor may have had an edge as evidenced by the ALPA contracts at UAL and DAL. Currently, management has the edge. Management has the credible threat of taking a company into Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Once in bankruptcy, management can seek to throw out the contracts in an 1113© hearing. Carty had lawyers ready to file a Chapter 11 petition if the unions on the property did not produce T/A''s that gave him what he thought AMR needed to survive.

Sure, labor can stand up. Labor can yell "full pay to the last day" and not bargain. The company can then enter into bankruptcy, and seek to have the contracts thrown out. After the contracts are thrown out, the unions can show their solidarity and strike. When the stike is over, the other carriers can pick at the bones of what is left while the former employees can walk together into the unemployment line.

While theory is just fine in an industrial relations course, the reality is that AMR people are grappling with hard decisions that will impact their careers, and earning potential. To look up from your books and chide them is just plain rude.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/8/2003 7:53:06 PM siucstudent wrote:

I will be the first to tell you my experience is in the classroom, the books, the lectures by those who have been there. I appreciate your point. My point is that what I am being taught here is not happening. You are all caving to a political corporate machine. Stand up for your skills and your experience. Solidarity????

SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL
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Our unions have seen the books. AA cannot continue like this. Something has to give. It will be by our agreeing to what''s been placed before us. The other choice is to have something far worse thrust upon us. Survival and strength depends on knowing when and where to make your stand. Choose wrong and you will be nothing more than a case study in a labor history book.

 

[siucstudent]

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On 4/8/2003 8:48:03 PM aislehopper wrote:

In this industry, there is an ebb and flow in the power of organized labor. In the late 1990''s, organized labor may have had an edge as evidenced by the ALPA contracts at UAL and DAL. Currently, management has the edge. Management has the credible threat of taking a company into Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Once in bankruptcy, management can seek to throw out the contracts in an 1113© hearing. Carty had lawyers ready to file a Chapter 11 petition if the unions on the property did not produce T/A''s that gave him what he thought AMR needed to survive.

Sure, labor can stand up. Labor can yell "full pay to the last day" and not bargain. The company can then enter into bankruptcy, and seek to have the contracts thrown out. After the contracts are thrown out, the unions can show their solidarity and strike. When the stike is over, the other carriers can pick at the bones of what is left while the former employees can walk together into the unemployment line.

While theory is just fine in an industrial relations course, the reality is that AMR people are grappling with hard decisions that will impact their careers, and earning potential. To look up from your books and chide them is just plain rude.

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I am sorry is that all it takes to ruffle the feathers of todays union members. I am nineteen surrounded by theory and history. You enjoyed your contracts that yes management did agree to so either defend them till the end or admit they may have been to fat even during the lean years. Which admits that no one had any control or since of planning.

SIUC Student
Carbondale,IL

 

[Winglet]

Between the depression in the industry, the recession in the economy, terror attacks, the Bush Administration''s free marketeers (except for taxing the industry at 30%), and stunningly incompetent and overpaid CEOs, no company can long survive regardless of employee dedication or low wages.

With the long term contracts now being forced on the workers (plus more concessions to come, i.e. retirement benefits), plus the scramble to push others out of the lifeboat, unionism is essentially dead in this industry.

Congrats to Mr. Bush and the CEOs . . . . you finally did it. Too bad you had to kill the companies to do it.

 

[aislehopper]

At this point, whether anyone had control or a sense of planning is irrelevant. The traditional network carriers are struggling to survive. AMR employees are going to have to work with their management to keep AA a viable carrier. The strike, solidarity, and "stand up for your rights" rhetoric is just not relevent in this economy.

In this economy, the market is rewarding the low cost provider. If the flying public will not even pay a premium for a meal service, they certainly are not going to pay a premium for the union label. All of the network carriers are going to have to transform ourselves into the LCC model.

If the AMR employees pull together and ratify the T/A''s, they can fight another day. If they hold to their guns and try protect the contract, AMR and its employees are going to go through a world of hurt.

Being surrounded by theory and history gives you an advantage. Without a knowlege of history, we are doomed to repeat its mistakes. You are in the enviable position of having a young fresh mind. With it, you may find a way to make organized labor relevant once again. However, chiding union members who are currently working to save their company to get up and fight a battle that they cannot win is wrong.

As for having my union feathers ruffled, FAMikey must be chuckling at that comment. He has been trying to convince me of the error of my ways for years.
You see, I am a non union delta flight attendant. I just have a lot of empathy and respect for what my collegues at AMR are experincing.

 

[siucstudent]

Regarding the TWU GroundWorkers T/A:

From the outside looking in and I know it is easy to do, considering we are doing it from behind a chalkboard, but this appears to stink from high heaven. First of all, the motion to accept was made by Charlie Meyer a 3 time bankruptcy IAM President and member employee of the ill fated Trans World Airlines. What did STL do, just change the name on the door to his local? Second, and speaking of second, it was seconded by MCI, a previous IAM member as well. They new what they were writing. Icahn had to lock the doors from these guys because they were constantly at his desk with more to offer. This is still a raise for them, yet it is exactly what the company was looking for to present to the judge and say, "Look your honor, we tried". This T/A you are voting on was written to be as bad as it is for a reason. Nobody at AA could have dreamed this much horror on 39 pieces of paper. It took bankruptcy experience and STL and MCI provided it for you. The company has full intention of using bankruptcy protection, employee contracts are just the tip of the iceberg as far as relief they are seeking. The whole industry is seeking.

It was written to be voted down.

SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:


regarding the TWU GroundWorkers T/A:

From the outside looking in and I know it is easy to do, considering we are doing it from behind a chalkboard, but this appears to stink from high heaven.

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That's just it. From the outside looking in. With absolutely nothing to lose in the outcome. Real lives and people are at stake here. Things do not get easier in a BK court. DIP financing will depend on specific cuts. AA will get them from the judge. We will live with a gun to our heads with the threat of chapter 7 at every turn.

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On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:

First of all, the motion to accept was made by Charlie Meyer a 3 time bankruptcy IAM President and member employee of the ill fated Trans World Airlines. What did STL do, just change the name on the door to his local? Second, and speaking of second, it was seconded by MCI, a previous IAM member as well. They new what they were writing. Icahn had to lock the doors from these guys because they were constantly at his desk with more to offer. This is still a raise for them, yet it is exactly what the company was looking for to present to the judge and say, "Look your honor, we tried".
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Well, someone had to first and second it. So be it from the people who know how much worse it can be in a BK court. It was duly fairly voted on and in to record. The motion passed.

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On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:

This T/A you are voting on was written to be as bad as it is for a reason. Nobody at AA could have dreamed this much horror on 39 pieces of paper. It took bankruptcy experience and STL and MCI provided it for you. The company has full intention of using bankruptcy protection, employee contracts are just the tip of the iceberg as far as relief they are seeking. The whole industry is seeking.

It was written to be voted down.

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Voted up, voted down. In the end this will always be the lesser, of the two evils. No way BK will make life easier, or a career safer. If it is such a great choice why don't you try it out on yourself for a while. A personal BK. Then keep us up to date on the proceedings and fun and easy times you are having. After you emerge we will want to hear all about the great time you have trying to get credit, a house or car with that over your head.

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

Must be great to be 19. Don''t you have an anti-war rally to go attend?