Slot job...

[Ardenian]

Ardenian Nov 12 2006, 05:11 AM Post #64

Well, it looks like the ride into the sunset of the U pilot seniority is about to begin.

Some thoughts:

Kirsch is the man who responsible for the U pilot’s loss in the Shuttle/U arbitration. He claims to have spoken with the arbitrator “off the record†and hence gave up fighting for Date-of-Hire for the U pilots. You should have seen his face at the LEC meeting after the Shuttle award when he asked, “How many of you pilots would have been happy with DOH with fences?†I think he expected no hands, but was faced with a roomful of hands. Clueless?

And who speaks to an arbitrator “off the record?â€

Carey was part of the Butkovic Negotiating Committee when the pension was given up. The NC worked closely with Siegel and the MEC to fashion a deal on which the pilots would not get to vote. I hear tell about ALPA facing a very serious lawsuit over those actions. What a guy…

This MC has continually refused to appear before the MEC to defend their position of protecting wide-body flying. Doesn’t DOH itself protect this? Then why don’t they just go for DOH? Why have they been so averse to answering direct questions?

Why do they state that “The bottom line has always been, what will your new seniority number buy you and how does that compare to what you could have reasonably expected without the merger? We have substantial attrition which speaks loudly to recalls and advancement.â€

What will my seniority buy me? My 18 years should buy me 18-years seniority! Who cares about attrition if you're going for DOH?

It sure looks like a set-up for accepting a slot job.

During a July pizza party in PHX, an AWA pilot asked Parker about the date of hire seniority integration of the AFA. Parker stated "luckily ALPA doesn't have Date of Hire in their merger policy.â€

Please Mr. Kirch, do not talk to the arbitrator “off the record.†Fight for your guys at least as hard as the AWA MC is fighting for theirs. The AFA went DOH, why can’t you at least fight for it?

Good luck all, including you AWA guys. See you on the A330!

And - one last time - Mr. Kirsch, no talking to the arbitrator "off the record!"

Some of us saw this coming...

Your thoughts, USA320?

 

[A320 Driver]

Some of us saw this coming...

Your thoughts, USA320?

I'm not USA320, but I have to ask, what is your beef? The Merger Committee put up a DOH case and lost.

What is your point?

A320 Driver B)

 

[nycbusdriver]

I'm not USA320, but I have to ask, what is your beef? The Merger Committee put up a DOH case and lost.

What is your point?

A320 Driver B)

The Merger Committee was heavily pressured to defend a DOH stance. This was from the rank-and-file from Day One.

Both Merger Committees did their jobs as they were told to do. We cannot blame them for the outcome.

It was Nicolau, who ignored policy, fairness and wisdom, who is to blame for this entire mess. He was ably abetted by the two pilots neutrals who decided to just take their ALPA "pay loss" protection and bury their heads in the sand.

I've heard that Nicolau has already been removed from the arbitrator list for ALPA. He had previously been fired by the NHL and another pro sports group (I don't know which.) Just shows that the Peter Principle is correct; it's just slow to surface sometime and often it's too late for the victims to avoid injury.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

nycbusdriver,

How about the AWA guys keep the Nicolau award for Phoenix and Las Vegas and the US guys keep DOH for all their bases? If any US guy/gal wants to go into PHX they'll use the Nicolau list for seniority. Conversely, if an AWA guy/gal wants to transfer to an east coast base they'll use their DOH. Seems fair to me.

Later,
Eye

The Merger Committee was heavily pressured to defend a DOH stance. This was from the rank-and-file from Day One.

Both Merger Committees did their jobs as they were told to do. We cannot blame them for the outcome.

It was Nicolau, who ignored policy, fairness and wisdom, who is to blame for this entire mess. He was ably abetted by the two pilots neutrals who decided to just take their ALPA "pay loss" protection and bury their heads in the sand.

I've heard that Nicolau has already been removed from the arbitrator list for ALPA. He had previously been fired by the NHL and another pro sports group (I don't know which.) Just shows that the Peter Principle is correct; it's just slow to surface sometime and often it's too late for the victims to avoid injury.

 

[AWA320]

I've heard that Nicolau has already been removed from the arbitrator list for ALPA. He had previously been fired by the NHL and another pro sports group (I don't know which.) Just shows that the Peter Principle is correct; it's just slow to surface sometime and often it's too late for the victims to avoid injury.

Nic was not removed he retired. Try and not let facts distort your view. Then again many of you have distorted views beyond facts ability to help

 

[A320 Driver]

nycbusdriver,

How about the AWA guys keep the Nicolau award for Phoenix and Las Vegas and the US guys keep DOH for all their bases? If any US guy/gal wants to go into PHX they'll use the Nicolau list for seniority. Conversely, if an AWA guy/gal wants to transfer to an east coast base they'll use their DOH. Seems fair to me.

Later,
Eye

DONE

AWA guys shouldn't have any problem with this UNLESS they want more than their career expectations will buy them and UNLESS there actually WAS a windfall in their favor.

The louder they squeal over an idea like this just betrays how good a deal they got with this award, which they seem slow to admit.


A320 Driver B)

 

[AWA320]

Did you ever stop to think that in addition to age, Mr Nicolau may have "retired" due to some recent decisions being "Less Than Perfect"?????

Steve Carlton "Retired" from the Phillies to avoid being cut at the end of his career. Get the anology???

That's completely absurd! The man retired because he's benn at this a long time and among the most respected in the business. The fact that all parties had a choice and that this arb was FREELY chosen by both doesn't bode well for your position.

In your would what would be fair?? Let me guess every AWA pilot on the bottom right? The jobs and seat that we brought to the dance mean nothing just al long as you get your way and you MUST have your way at any cost.

Less than perfect decision?? Yeah the top 517 should have been slotted as well.

DONE

AWA guys shouldn't have any problem with this UNLESS they want more than their career expectations will buy them and UNLESS there actually WAS a windfall in their favor.

The louder they squeal over an idea like this just betrays how good a deal they got with this award, which they seem slow to admit.
A320 Driver B)

Ah No that ain't gonna work either!! You see while AAA was busy returning airbuses and 737 we out west were taking deliver of NEW airbuses. While AAA was busy downsizing we out west were expanding. Then the life line was tossed and not some but all growth on the west ceased. No more deliveries were taken as a result of that life line.

Now we can go back and forth on who was hurt more and who would have been in BK and that I will grant you however BK for the west meant certain liquidation for you on the east.

That winfall comment is old and unsubstantiated period! We did not get a windfall of any sort. What you are now begging and crying for is a wind fall. 18 years on the east premerger bought you a very jr position and 18 years post merger bought you that same relative position. Life is so unfair isn't it. Now really who is begging for a windfall here??

 

[A320 Driver]

[quote name='AWA320' date='Jun 10 2007, 11:18 AM' Ah No that ain't gonna work either!! You see while AAA was busy returning airbuses and 737 we out west were taking deliver of NEW airbuses. While AAA was busy downsizing we out west were expanding. Then the life line was tossed and not some but all growth on the west ceased. No more deliveries were taken as a result of that life line.

Now we can go back and forth on who was hurt more and who would have been in BK and that I will grant you however BK for the west meant certain liquidation for you on the east.




I thought you'd say that. You want the option to come East and use your new found seniority. It's not enough to protect the West bases, you want to make sure the East bases are exposed to the new seniority list per the award.

You want it all. I'd probably feel the same way were I on the "winning" team. Problem is, what are you willing to invest to get it. The East pilots would rather burn their flight bags in front of the head shed in Tempe than see this thing come off.

Be honest, you want what you want, game over. BTW, those deliveries you guys were taking, you know the new A-320s, how many of those were actually growth aircraft and how many were replacements?

It doesn't matter how good a suggestion is fronted, you are not willing to entertain it. Sure you're not one of our Reps?

A320 Driver B)

 

[hp_fa]

Both Merger Committees did their jobs as they were told to do. We cannot blame them for the outcome.

It was Nicolau, who ignored policy, fairness and wisdom, who is to blame for this entire mess. He was ably abetted by the two pilots neutrals who decided to just take their ALPA "pay loss" protection and bury their heads in the sand.

Help me with this....

The first paragraph sounds entirely reasonable and logical. The second doesn't. How did Nicolau ignore "policy, fairness and wisdom"? Also, how can it be basically be claimed that the two neutrals decided to take the money (pay loss) and run?

There just seems to be a logic change from the first paragraph to the second.....

On another point, while I could see the proposed "deal" mentioned above, specifically that the Nicolau ruling apply to PHX and LAS and DOH apply elsewhere, as having some merit and appeal, if I were a West pilot I would still have issues about:
1. Negotiating after an award that could have been a loss in arbitration (therefore why should you negotiate away a win when you wouldn't likely have been able to negotiate away a loss); and,
2. It is simply bad public policy to have a binding arbitration award basically negated by post-decision negotiating. The negotiating should have occurred before, not after, the award.

 

[A320 Driver]

Help me with this....

The first paragraph sounds entirely reasonable and logical. The second doesn't. How did Nicolau ignore "policy, fairness and wisdom"? Also, how can it be basically be claimed that the two neutrals decided to take the money (pay loss) and run?

There just seems to be a logic change from the first paragraph to the second.....

On another point, while I could see the proposed "deal" mentioned above, specifically that the Nicolau ruling apply to PHX and LAS and DOH apply elsewhere, as having some merit and appeal, if I were a West pilot I would still have issues about:
1. Negotiating after an award that could have been a loss in arbitration (therefore why should you negotiate away a win when you wouldn't likely have been able to negotiate away a loss); and,
2. It is simply bad public policy to have a binding arbitration award basically negated by post-decision negotiating. The negotiating should have occurred before, not after, the award.

The arbitrator, when he told the respective committees that they needed to sharpen their pencils, said he invisioned an award with a combination of DOH, slotting, and ratios. What he put out was a simple mathmatical formula that anyone could have done with a pocket calculator in a couple of hours. The neutrals went along with it because it was easy. Take the money and run.

The whole point is that the arbitrator was not even true to his own word, much less ALPA merger policy. East made mistakes...SERIOUS mistakes, but so did the arbitrator when he made his award punitive for those mistakes...and then he retires.


A320 Driver B)

 

[CactusFlyr]

nycbusdriver,

How about the AWA guys keep the Nicolau award for Phoenix and Las Vegas and the US guys keep DOH for all their bases? If any US guy/gal wants to go into PHX they'll use the Nicolau list for seniority. Conversely, if an AWA guy/gal wants to transfer to an east coast base they'll use their DOH. Seems fair to me.

Later,
Eye

That would have been a fine proposal, a year ago.

 

[A320 Driver]

You are no more aware of the circumstance of Mr Nicolau any more than Paris Hilton can count to 20 without taking off her shoes.

I don't HAVE a position of ANY kind. As far as I'm concerned you can settle it withing dueling pistols at 10 paces. Then you jump up all ugly and full of venom. Hey knock yourself out dude. Get that acid boiling and give yourself a nice fat bleeding ulcer over this. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean I'm not correct & conversely just because I said it doesn't make it so either. I was just posing a possibility and it's a plausable one.

Meanwhile the company has got a woody a yard long watching you destroy yourselves from within because all of this rancor means it's ONE more day that they get lower than market Labor costs.

All of you are playing with fire here, Company too! Your Elites are bolting, you can't buy positive press and your DOT stats are in the toilet, Res system doesn't work, Web site is a failure, Customer service is down the crap hole and just go right ahead and stand your ground all the way to the unemployment line.

Be my ever loving guest AWA320.

Guess that's the bottom line Bob. We're fiddling while Rome's burning.

Thanks for putting things in perspective. I was getting carried away...again.

A320 Driver B)

 

[AWA320]

Guess that's the bottom line Bob. We're fiddling while Rome's burning.

Thanks for putting things in perspective. I was getting carried away...again.

A320 Driver B)

I couldn't have said that any better myself, however I do have marshmellows

 

[EyeInTheSky]

CactusFlyr,

Never say never. Keep in mind, this little proposal would cover ALPA's butt legally and satisfy the vast majority of US pilots. Since your MEC doesn't want to negotiate they may end up regretting that lack of vision. I think everyone will know sooner rather than later.

Later,
Eye

That would have been a fine proposal, a year ago.

 

[ClueByFour]

Never say never. Keep in mind, this little proposal would cover ALPA's butt legally and satisfy the vast majority of US pilots. Since your MEC doesn't want to negotiate they may end up regretting that lack of vision. I think everyone will know sooner rather than later.

Wait--the HP MEC might regret lack of vision?

Irony alert at 11.