Socialism

[SparrowHawk]

Yes you did justify the killing due to the events of another. Just like in the other thread where you justify killings of millions as long as it doesn't come and rain on your parade. Pretty warped my friend. Pretty warped.

You're like my ex-wife you don't comprehend the difference between a reason and an excuse. The taking of a human life is almost never excusable but often there are reasons for ones actions. Legally that's referred to as mitigating circumstances which often determine whether someone receives a harsher penalty like say the death penalty.

In Trumka's case had the prosecution been able to establish a link he should have been charged with Felony Murder much as his predecessor W, A. (tony) Boyle was in the Yablonksi murders. Had Trumka been convicted of Murder he would then used the culture/history of violence both within the UMW of A and Coal Miner culture to perhaps avoid the Death Penalty.

While we have degrees of Murder, a fact that should not get lost. and mitigating & aggravating circumstances to determine penalty the fact remains that the victim is no less dead, a fact that should not be lost in the debate

 

[dapoes]

You're like my ex-wife you don't comprehend the difference between a reason and an excuse. The taking of a human life is almost never excusable but often there are reasons for ones actions. Legally that's referred to as mitigating circumstances which often determine whether someone receives a harsher penalty like say the death penalty.

In Trumka's case had the prosecution been able to establish a link he should have been charged with Felony Murder much as his predecessor W, A. (tony) Boyle was in the Yablonksi murders. Had Trumka been convicted of Murder he would then used the culture/history of violence both within the UMW of A and Coal Miner culture to perhaps avoid the Death Penalty.

While we have degrees of Murder, a fact that should not get lost. and mitigating & aggravating circumstances to determine penalty the fact remains that the victim is no less dead, a fact that should not be lost in the debate

You really don't know anything about the Eddie York incident nor that "secret settlement" issued just two days after the judge ordered the release of evidence that directly implicated Trumka. But that doesn't stop you from making ridiculous assertions.

 

[SparrowHawk]

You really don't know anything about the Eddie York incident nor that "secret settlement" issued just two days after the judge ordered the release of evidence that directly implicated Trumka. But that doesn't stop you from making ridiculous assertions.

This happens all the time! You think Eddie York is the first one? Let's talk about Sheriff Sid Hatfield of Matewan, WV shall we? Shot THIRTEEN times in broad daylight. The last bullet was fired by C. E Lively (A Baldwin-Felt Employee) struck Sid Hatfield between the eyes at point blank range. The above took place on the steps of the McDowell County Courthouse with witnesses present and to this day there has been no trial.

This was the galvanizing event that started the WV Coal Field Wars. You might want to try taking a look at history to at least develop a context. Doesn't change whet Trumka did or didn't do it just adds some historical perspective. See this is still the USA and regardless of what smoking gun you find until there is a conviction it's all speculation.

One difference between Trimka and the Baldwins is one of their employees was identified by multiple eyewitnesses, yet the bought and paid for by the coal operators government of WV did nothing to bring C. E Lively and his gun thugs to Justice.

Before you attack Trumka with your standard half truths and innuendo, perhaps a history lesson is in order.

 

[dapoes]

This happens all the time! You think Eddie York is the first one? Let's talk about Sheriff Sid Hatfield of Matewan, WV shall we? Shot THIRTEEN times in broad daylight. The last bullet was fired by C. E Lively (A Baldwin-Felt Employee) struck Sid Hatfield between the eyes at point blank range. The above took place on the steps of the McDowell County Courthouse with witnesses present and to this day there has been no trial.

This was the galvanizing event that started the WV Coal Field Wars. You might want to try taking a look at history to at least develop a context. Doesn't change whet Trumka did or didn't do it just adds some historical perspective. See this is still the USA and regardless of what smoking gun you find until there is a conviction it's all speculation.

One difference between Trimka and the Baldwins is one of their employees was identified by multiple eyewitnesses, yet the bought and paid for by the coal operators government of WV did nothing to bring C. E Lively and his gun thugs to Justice.

Before you attack Trumka with your standard half truths and innuendo, perhaps a history lesson is in order.

Wow, again with the justifications! Shameful, simply shameful! :unsure:

 

[SparrowHawk]

Wow, again with the justifications! Shameful, simply shameful! :unsure:

What about Sid Hatfield? Are his relatives any less deserving? ANSWER me how YOU justify the taking of a Law Enforcement Officer's life in broad daylight by hired Gun Thugs? How does the duality work?

From Wikipedia:

Hatfield was indicted on murder charges stemming from the shootout but was later acquitted by the jury. He was sent to stand trial with Ed Chambers on conspiracy charges for an unrelated incident and was set to stand trial in Welch, West Virginia. Hatfield was unarmed when several Baldwin-Felts men shot and killed him on the McDowell County Courthouse steps. Reports from that time say that the unarmed Hatfield had seventeen bullets in him. None of the Baldwin-Felts detectives was ever charged in Hatfield's assassination. This caused an outpouring of grief for the fallen local hero at the funeral. It was one of the causes of the stem of outrage that led to the Battle of Blair Mountain.

More on Sid Hatfield:

http://www.wvculture.org/history/labor/matewan04.html

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F40810FD3A5A1B7A93C7A81789D95F458285F9

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1974/5/1974_5_58.shtml

 

[Kev3188]

I know what you mean Kev. But unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. If organized labor was what it used to be then it probably wouldn't be that bad. But its not. It hasn't for a long, long time.

I guess I'm still optimistic that it can change.

That is true however it seems that the direction of organized labor took a turn for the worst under people like him. Trumka isn't any better either.

My "jury" is still out on Trumka.

That's odd you equate the direction of the nation as going fascist.

Why? We see it everyday.

Americans want freedom from government intervention and their freedom to choose as they want whether to their benefit or not.

No, in general, Americans are unwilling to pay for the government they want.

 

[dapoes]

I guess I'm still optimistic that it can change.




My "jury" is still out on Trumka.




Why? We see it everyday.



No, in general, Americans are unwilling to pay for the government they want.

More like the majority of Americans (conservative) are unwilling to pay for the government progressives want.

 

[Kev3188]

People want good roads... But don't want to pay for them...

People want good schools for their children... But don't want to pay for them...

And so on...

 

[dapoes]

People want good roads... But don't want to pay for them...

People want good schools for their children... But don't want to pay for them...

And so on...

Thats not true Kev. Nobody is marching around saying they don't want to pay taxes. You are mimicking hard left talking points again. I have no problem paying taxes as with most conservatives, tea party, etc. What I have a problem with is the continual lack of accountability, waste, fraud, abuse and programs shoved down our throat that we don't want. I don't want to pay for my neighbors daughters birth control pills and or abortion. I don't want to continue to subsidize those who leech of the system who are more then capable to sustain themselves. And I most definitely dont want to pay for a nationalized health care program that is administered by politicians.

Perfect example was the latest GAO report highlighting this.

Here are just a few of the highlights of this report;
There are at minimum 15 agencies split between the USDA and the FDA that are involved in food safety oversight.
There are 31 unique entities within DoD to outline "Warfighter Urgent Needs".
The USDA, Dept. of Commerce, HUD, and the SBA have a total of 80 economic development programs between them.
There are five agencies within the DOT that own over 100 surface transportation programs.
There are seven federal agencies that oversee and operate over 20 different homelessness programs.
There are 18 domestic food assistance programs
DoE, HHS, and DoL oversee in excess of 44 employment and job training programs.
There are a total of ten different federal agencies administrating 82 teacher quality programs.
There are more than 20 unique agencies operating 56 different financial literacy programs.

A lot of these are overlapping, duplicates, etc., adding billions that the taxpayer has to pay for.

 

[Kev3188]

Thats not true Kev. Nobody is marching around saying they don't want to pay taxes. You are mimicking hard left talking points again. I have no problem paying taxes as with most conservatives, tea party, etc. What I have a problem with is the continual lack of accountability, waste, fraud, abuse and programs shoved down our throat that we don't want. I don't want to pay for my neighbors daughters birth control pills and or abortion. I don't want to continue to subsidize those who leech of the system who are more then capable to sustain themselves. And I most definitely dont want to pay for a nationalized health care program that is administered by politicians.

There are plenty of people saying it all around us.

I'm pretty sure that gaining efficiency, eliminating duplication, and other moves would be universally supported (I'm for it, anyway). The question of *how* to go about that, is where it gets tricky.

As for Planned Parenthood, I don't have a uterus, so it's not for me to say what a woman does with her body. That said, I *do* support many of the other services they provide, such as birth control and pap smears to those that otherwise might not have access to them.

 

[dapoes]

There are plenty of people saying it all around us.

No Kev. There are very few of those sovereign type people who don't think they should not have to pay taxes. If you are somehow trying to label conservatives and TP as not wanting to pay ANY taxes you are dead wrong and you know it. The problem is paying more then what is necessary in the face of an expanding gov fraught with waste, fraud and abuse.

 

[Kev3188]

Yes Dapoes.

And I wasn't trying to pigeonhole it to a single group.

 

[dapoes]

Yes Dapoes.

And I wasn't trying to pigeonhole it to a single group.

Then what you really mean by "There are plenty of people saying it all around us." is not tax avoidance, more like concern over frivolous tax expenditures and the debate from left and right if those are frivolous or not. Sound about right?

 

[Kev3188]

That's what rational people (on either side of the aisle) would say. Unfortunately, the vocal majority traffic in hyperbolic sound bites.

 

[dapoes]

That's what rational people (on either side of the aisle) would say. Unfortunately, the vocal majority traffic in hyperbolic sound bites.

That would be like saying all democrats want to raise taxes and tax the rich, etc. Its nothing more then a hyperbolic sound bite as well.