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Southeast Airlines
- Thread starter MiAAmi
- Start date
From what I've heard, Southeast is doing better than expected at LCK. What is really surprising to them is the amount of people that are taking the LCK-ABE leg of the trip. The ABE-LCK-LAS route is supposed to go up from 2 times weekly service to 4 times weekly service soon. Also, LCK-SFB will be flown 4 times weekly with a mix of MD-80 and DC-9 aircraft, and LCK-PIE will be flown 4 times weekly with DC-9 aircraft. Things are looking good for Southeast at Rickenbacker.
Chicken Taco
Member
- Aug 29, 2002
- 50
- 0
Go southeast!
This is a brave step considering there's already CMH service to LAS, MCO, and TPA. It's good to see some competition in the Columbus market. Maybe southeast will head for CMH soon, there's lots of open space and it's a lot more convenient to the population center than LCK..
..CT
This is a brave step considering there's already CMH service to LAS, MCO, and TPA. It's good to see some competition in the Columbus market. Maybe southeast will head for CMH soon, there's lots of open space and it's a lot more convenient to the population center than LCK..
..CT
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #7
I'm sure that the city gave them some kind of breaks to make sure they used LCK since they just built a new terminal there. I doubt they will be leaving LCK anytime soon. It will be interesting to see if they do well at LCK, if so maybe we will see more service from Columbus's second airport.
Yes, Southeast did receive breaks on gate leases as well as funds for television and prints advertisements in the Columbus market. I think that as long as Southeast continues on the track they're going in the Columbus market, that they'll stick around. Also, more service is coming to Rickenbacker. The Ohio State University has contracted Rickenbacker as their exclusive airport for all football game charters in the upcoming season. All incoming teams playing the Buckeyes will use Rickenbacker, as well as the Buckeyes flying to play at away games.
On another note on the cargo front, Kitty Hawk in cooperation with Orion Air Cargo will be commencing operations to LCK with a daily 727 every morning. Earlier this year Polar Air Cargo announced an additional 747 flight into LCK.
On another note on the cargo front, Kitty Hawk in cooperation with Orion Air Cargo will be commencing operations to LCK with a daily 727 every morning. Earlier this year Polar Air Cargo announced an additional 747 flight into LCK.
If I lived in CMH, I would be really upset about this development. With the pullout of AWA, Port Columbus has lots of extra capacity... Like 10 or 12 extra gates by my count... And the airport had room to expand before AWA left.
With all of the new construction at Port CMH (and financing to go with it), it seems to me the Airport Authority is undermining itself. They give breaks to an upstart airline to use a LCK. This in turn pulls passengers and revenue (to fund those revenue bonds) away from CMH. Then as airlines become less profitable, they cut flights or leave town all together, exacerbating CMH's future problems paying for those revenue bonds.
This move will also undermine any efforts CMH makes to market its excess facilities to other airlines... Why would AirTran or Frontier move into CMH when they also have to compete with Southeast, who is getting a deal on facilities at LCK. If AirTran or Frontier (or whoever) were interested, they would probably require a "discount" of some sort, or an ad deal like they did with Southeast at LCK. This again would undermine the financing already in place for all the new construction.
Do I think that Southeast will have a huge impact on CMH? No. Do I think it starts the slippery downward slope of undermining the role of CMH in Columbus? Yes - Especially if Southeast is getting breaks on landing fees and rent while passengers do not have to pay for its construction through concessions and parking fees. If Southeast were paying for using the facility, that would be a different story.
CMH is a great airport, well run, centrally located. Its the place passenger operations should be. LCK has a great niche to develop in the cargo/shipping world. But Columbus won't need a second passenger airport until 10 million people live there... and thats a long way to go.
If CMH were still busting at the seams, like it was years ago, moving some ops to LCK wouldn't be so bad... But the situation is that CMH has been building extra facilities, and now has a large excess supply of airline facilities (and the debt to go with it). They should encourage all passenger operations to be centralized there, so the debt can be paid off...
With all of the new construction at Port CMH (and financing to go with it), it seems to me the Airport Authority is undermining itself. They give breaks to an upstart airline to use a LCK. This in turn pulls passengers and revenue (to fund those revenue bonds) away from CMH. Then as airlines become less profitable, they cut flights or leave town all together, exacerbating CMH's future problems paying for those revenue bonds.
This move will also undermine any efforts CMH makes to market its excess facilities to other airlines... Why would AirTran or Frontier move into CMH when they also have to compete with Southeast, who is getting a deal on facilities at LCK. If AirTran or Frontier (or whoever) were interested, they would probably require a "discount" of some sort, or an ad deal like they did with Southeast at LCK. This again would undermine the financing already in place for all the new construction.
Do I think that Southeast will have a huge impact on CMH? No. Do I think it starts the slippery downward slope of undermining the role of CMH in Columbus? Yes - Especially if Southeast is getting breaks on landing fees and rent while passengers do not have to pay for its construction through concessions and parking fees. If Southeast were paying for using the facility, that would be a different story.
CMH is a great airport, well run, centrally located. Its the place passenger operations should be. LCK has a great niche to develop in the cargo/shipping world. But Columbus won't need a second passenger airport until 10 million people live there... and thats a long way to go.
If CMH were still busting at the seams, like it was years ago, moving some ops to LCK wouldn't be so bad... But the situation is that CMH has been building extra facilities, and now has a large excess supply of airline facilities (and the debt to go with it). They should encourage all passenger operations to be centralized there, so the debt can be paid off...
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #10
Its about competition. If CMH needed more low fare carriers Southeast would be there. The city has the right idea, maximize its facilities. Granted with the loss of HP's Hub CMHhas extra gate space available, but I'm sure the city would have trouble getting Southeast to commit to CMH since Southwest has discount seats to LAS MCO and TPA. If the city can draw more carriers to the city the fares will remain lower than the HUB cities of CLE and CVG. Thus giving Columbus the status of cheaper airfares. If peoples perception of CMH and LCK are that they are the lower fare airports of Ohio then you will see CMH and LCK drawing people from places like CVG DAY CAK CLE and West Virginia. The same thing happens in South Florida. FLL is known as the discount airline airport while big brother MIA has limited discount carriers. The more people Columbus can draw to either airport only helps the city. I'm sure the city is trying to plant that seed right now with the hopes of drawing more pax to the city hence making up for the loss of HP.
Okay, first a little bit of history...
Port Columbus and Rickenbacker used to be operated by two separate port authorities. The Columbus Airport Authority controlled Port Columbus and Bolton Field, while the Rickenbacker Port Authority presided over LCK's operations. While the Columbus Airport Authority had been fiscally solvent for years, the opposite went for Rickenbacker. The Rickenbacker Port Authority relied on subsidies handed out by Franklin County amounting to millions of dollars every year for nearly a decade. Faced with growing disapproval of the fact that LCK was still relying on these subsidies, the Rickenbacker Port Authority decided to look for other sources of income. Their plan: build a brand new passenger terminal so as to receive government funds as well as increased landing fees and other airport usages. This, of course, raised eyebrows at City Hall and over at the Columbus Airport Authority. Essentially, both airports would be competing with each other for passenger air service. So the Franklin County commissioners and the Mayor of Columbus decided it would be best for both airport authorities to merge to create one overseeing body for all 3 airports (Port Columbus, Rickenbacker, and Bolton). The Rickenbacker Port Authority was not pleased with this. So despite the Franklin County commissioners' requests for plans for the new terminal be put on hold until the consultants working on the issue of whether to merge the two authorities were finished, Rickenbacker went ahead and began construction on the new terminal building.
Of course, both authorities were merged late in 2002 creating the Columbus Regional Airport Authority, overseeing the 3 Columbus airports. However, now the new Airport Authority (mostly comprised of those already at the Columbus Airport Authority) had a dilemma on their hands: what to do with this million-dollar terminal sitting idle at Rickenbacker? So plans were put in place to encourage charter airlines to use the terminal and free up Port Columbus to handle only scheduled air traffic. Then came the huge blow, America West's decision to terminate their Port Columbus hub. To address some of your statements:
"With all of the new construction at Port CMH (and financing to go with it), it seems to me the Airport Authority is undermining itself. They give breaks to an upstart airline to use a LCK.
Keep in mind, the airport authority is offering the same incentives to scheduled carriers to increase/start new service at Port Columbus. Any new carrier at CMH is eligible for up to $50,000 in landing fee breaks as well as advertising dollars to promote the new service. Delta Connection and American Eagle have already taken advantage of the program. More information concerning the program can be found at: http://www.port-columbus.com/news/publicat...icle.asp?PID=17
"This in turn pulls passengers and revenue (to fund those revenue bonds) away from CMH. Then as airlines become less profitable, they cut flights or leave town all together, exacerbating CMH's future problems paying for those revenue bonds."
CMH and LCK are run by the same authority, so revenue generated by LCK goes to the same place as revenue generated by CMH. And in fact, the introduction of Southeast is expected to have a beneficial effect on airline operations at Port Columbus, causing airlines operating there to lower prices therefore stimulating increased traffic at CMH. In addition, the airport authority has already addressed the revenue issue in regards to America West's pull down at CMH. Keep in mind, America West is KEEPING all their gates at CMH until I believe mid-2004, so they are still paying all those gate leases. The airport also increased parking fees at the airport to make up for the loss of revenue from America West. More on the airport's financial practices can be found at: http://www.port-columbus.com/news/publicat...ations/cafr.asp
"This move will also undermine any efforts CMH makes to market its excess facilities to other airlines... Why would AirTran or Frontier move into CMH when they also have to compete with Southeast, who is getting a deal on facilities at LCK. If AirTran or Frontier (or whoever) were interested, they would probably require a "discount" of some sort, or an ad deal like they did with Southeast at LCK."
See above. The airport authority is offering incentive at both CMH and LCK. Also, the airport authority has no intention of trying to bring airlines such as AirTran or Frontier to LCK. Rickenbacker is to remain a cargo specific airport with limited charter traffic. Keep in mind; Southeast's flights are "scheduled charter" flights, Southeast's revenue from advanced passenger bookings aren't seen until said passengers have actually traveled on their respective flights. So the idea of CMH and LCK competing for new airlines like FL and F9 is a moot point.
"Do I think that Southeast will have a huge impact on CMH? No. Do I think it starts the slippery downward slope of undermining the role of CMH in Columbus? Yes - Especially if Southeast is getting breaks on landing fees and rent while passengers do not have to pay for its construction through concessions and parking fees. If Southeast were paying for using the facility, that would be a different story."
I agree, Southeast most likely won't have an incredibly large impact at CMH, but I don't think it in any way hinders Port Columbus' roll as the city's main passenger airport for the reasons I already stated. Also keep in mind; these incentives that Southeast is receiving are only temporary. The breaks on facility charges and the like apply for the first six months of operation. From then on, Southeast is on its own.
I hope this clears up a few misconceptions on the way the airport system in Columbus is set up. In my opinion, the introduction of Southeast, and the use of the terminal at Rickenbacker as a way to make money off a potential white elephant, are excellent steps taken by the Columbus Regional Airport Authority. Hopefully passenger traffic will continue to grow at both Rickenbacker and Port Columbus.
Port Columbus and Rickenbacker used to be operated by two separate port authorities. The Columbus Airport Authority controlled Port Columbus and Bolton Field, while the Rickenbacker Port Authority presided over LCK's operations. While the Columbus Airport Authority had been fiscally solvent for years, the opposite went for Rickenbacker. The Rickenbacker Port Authority relied on subsidies handed out by Franklin County amounting to millions of dollars every year for nearly a decade. Faced with growing disapproval of the fact that LCK was still relying on these subsidies, the Rickenbacker Port Authority decided to look for other sources of income. Their plan: build a brand new passenger terminal so as to receive government funds as well as increased landing fees and other airport usages. This, of course, raised eyebrows at City Hall and over at the Columbus Airport Authority. Essentially, both airports would be competing with each other for passenger air service. So the Franklin County commissioners and the Mayor of Columbus decided it would be best for both airport authorities to merge to create one overseeing body for all 3 airports (Port Columbus, Rickenbacker, and Bolton). The Rickenbacker Port Authority was not pleased with this. So despite the Franklin County commissioners' requests for plans for the new terminal be put on hold until the consultants working on the issue of whether to merge the two authorities were finished, Rickenbacker went ahead and began construction on the new terminal building.
Of course, both authorities were merged late in 2002 creating the Columbus Regional Airport Authority, overseeing the 3 Columbus airports. However, now the new Airport Authority (mostly comprised of those already at the Columbus Airport Authority) had a dilemma on their hands: what to do with this million-dollar terminal sitting idle at Rickenbacker? So plans were put in place to encourage charter airlines to use the terminal and free up Port Columbus to handle only scheduled air traffic. Then came the huge blow, America West's decision to terminate their Port Columbus hub. To address some of your statements:
"With all of the new construction at Port CMH (and financing to go with it), it seems to me the Airport Authority is undermining itself. They give breaks to an upstart airline to use a LCK.
Keep in mind, the airport authority is offering the same incentives to scheduled carriers to increase/start new service at Port Columbus. Any new carrier at CMH is eligible for up to $50,000 in landing fee breaks as well as advertising dollars to promote the new service. Delta Connection and American Eagle have already taken advantage of the program. More information concerning the program can be found at: http://www.port-columbus.com/news/publicat...icle.asp?PID=17
"This in turn pulls passengers and revenue (to fund those revenue bonds) away from CMH. Then as airlines become less profitable, they cut flights or leave town all together, exacerbating CMH's future problems paying for those revenue bonds."
CMH and LCK are run by the same authority, so revenue generated by LCK goes to the same place as revenue generated by CMH. And in fact, the introduction of Southeast is expected to have a beneficial effect on airline operations at Port Columbus, causing airlines operating there to lower prices therefore stimulating increased traffic at CMH. In addition, the airport authority has already addressed the revenue issue in regards to America West's pull down at CMH. Keep in mind, America West is KEEPING all their gates at CMH until I believe mid-2004, so they are still paying all those gate leases. The airport also increased parking fees at the airport to make up for the loss of revenue from America West. More on the airport's financial practices can be found at: http://www.port-columbus.com/news/publicat...ations/cafr.asp
"This move will also undermine any efforts CMH makes to market its excess facilities to other airlines... Why would AirTran or Frontier move into CMH when they also have to compete with Southeast, who is getting a deal on facilities at LCK. If AirTran or Frontier (or whoever) were interested, they would probably require a "discount" of some sort, or an ad deal like they did with Southeast at LCK."
See above. The airport authority is offering incentive at both CMH and LCK. Also, the airport authority has no intention of trying to bring airlines such as AirTran or Frontier to LCK. Rickenbacker is to remain a cargo specific airport with limited charter traffic. Keep in mind; Southeast's flights are "scheduled charter" flights, Southeast's revenue from advanced passenger bookings aren't seen until said passengers have actually traveled on their respective flights. So the idea of CMH and LCK competing for new airlines like FL and F9 is a moot point.
"Do I think that Southeast will have a huge impact on CMH? No. Do I think it starts the slippery downward slope of undermining the role of CMH in Columbus? Yes - Especially if Southeast is getting breaks on landing fees and rent while passengers do not have to pay for its construction through concessions and parking fees. If Southeast were paying for using the facility, that would be a different story."
I agree, Southeast most likely won't have an incredibly large impact at CMH, but I don't think it in any way hinders Port Columbus' roll as the city's main passenger airport for the reasons I already stated. Also keep in mind; these incentives that Southeast is receiving are only temporary. The breaks on facility charges and the like apply for the first six months of operation. From then on, Southeast is on its own.
I hope this clears up a few misconceptions on the way the airport system in Columbus is set up. In my opinion, the introduction of Southeast, and the use of the terminal at Rickenbacker as a way to make money off a potential white elephant, are excellent steps taken by the Columbus Regional Airport Authority. Hopefully passenger traffic will continue to grow at both Rickenbacker and Port Columbus.
Thanks for the details N905AW...
I have always thought that the idea of a passenger terminal for airline operations at LCK was a BAD idea... The "build it and they will come" philosophy. It is a white elephant. But good luck to Southeast anyways.
But, this brings up two questions in my mind:
1) Why would Southeast voluntarily operate at LCK when they can have the same deal at CMH? My recollection is that LCK is pretty far away from the main population centers, while CMH is comfortably in the middle of it all. Even if AWA was still operating their hub, I believe there are extra gates on Con. C where DL used to be. I don't understand why an airline would locate at a less desirable facility, unless they were paying less for... something. So I have to think that either something costs less at LCK or that the leadership at Southeast was talked into operating there (or not that bright).
2) Fine... AWA is stuck with the tab on their gates for a year. Assuming there is no sublease, that also means there are no additional landing fees and no additional shared profits from concessions. Would it bother me that the Airport Authority built all these additional facilities only to lose their hub carrier shortly after it opens? You betcha. It looks like the Airport Authority did not really know what was going on.
To the casual observer, it looks like roughly 25% of the airport is not being used. Meanwhile, I, Joe Consumer, have to pay more to park at CMH just so the airport can have extra gates, which clearly it does not need right now. Plus, I can now drive even futher to take a flight from a terminal which should never have been built at LCK!
Now, I understand that all these plans were in place prior to 9/11/01, and the world looked rosy then... Indeed, CMH at the time was probably "comfortably full" as an airport. And I understand that the LCK terminal was built by some quasi-government agency for no good reason, other than we must do something with this old Air Force Base. But now, I have to assume it would be more cost effective to mothball the LCK terminal, and focus on CMH. When CMH is at capacity again, reopen LCK.
I have always thought that the idea of a passenger terminal for airline operations at LCK was a BAD idea... The "build it and they will come" philosophy. It is a white elephant. But good luck to Southeast anyways.
But, this brings up two questions in my mind:
1) Why would Southeast voluntarily operate at LCK when they can have the same deal at CMH? My recollection is that LCK is pretty far away from the main population centers, while CMH is comfortably in the middle of it all. Even if AWA was still operating their hub, I believe there are extra gates on Con. C where DL used to be. I don't understand why an airline would locate at a less desirable facility, unless they were paying less for... something. So I have to think that either something costs less at LCK or that the leadership at Southeast was talked into operating there (or not that bright).
2) Fine... AWA is stuck with the tab on their gates for a year. Assuming there is no sublease, that also means there are no additional landing fees and no additional shared profits from concessions. Would it bother me that the Airport Authority built all these additional facilities only to lose their hub carrier shortly after it opens? You betcha. It looks like the Airport Authority did not really know what was going on.
To the casual observer, it looks like roughly 25% of the airport is not being used. Meanwhile, I, Joe Consumer, have to pay more to park at CMH just so the airport can have extra gates, which clearly it does not need right now. Plus, I can now drive even futher to take a flight from a terminal which should never have been built at LCK!
Now, I understand that all these plans were in place prior to 9/11/01, and the world looked rosy then... Indeed, CMH at the time was probably "comfortably full" as an airport. And I understand that the LCK terminal was built by some quasi-government agency for no good reason, other than we must do something with this old Air Force Base. But now, I have to assume it would be more cost effective to mothball the LCK terminal, and focus on CMH. When CMH is at capacity again, reopen LCK.
I do agree that it most likely would have been best had the charter terminal at Rickenbacker not been built at all, but as you can see, things can change quite drastically in a 1-year time span. One can't change the past, so might as well make the most of what is delt. That's why I do think it's a better idea to get the facility up-and-running with an air carrier than leave it there not making any money, even if there is excess space at Port Columbus.
I think there are several reasons that Southeast was brought to Rickenbacker. First of all, the terminal isn't being marketed for scheduled passenger airlines, but as a charter/scheduled charter specific facility. This fits well into Southeast general business scheme, as many of their airports are secondary (SFB instead of MCO, PIE instead of TPA, and ABE instead of PHL).
Second, while CMH is closer to the Columbus central business district, as well as the more affluent areas of Columbus and Central Ohio, driving distance is a secondary aspect for the price-conscious leisure traveler. If Columbus residents have no qualms about driving down to Dayton to take AirTran to Orlando, I doubt they'll mind the 30 minute drive from Hilliard to LCK. So for those looking for the ultra-cheap $123 fare to SFB on Southeast, I think they'll put up with a few extra minutes of driving time. Those that want the moderately cheap $158 fare to MCO on Southwest, they'll have the convenience of CMH and nonstop access to Orlando's premier airport, and for the Delta SkyMiles members that are attending a conference in Orlando or cashing in on miles, they can take one of Delta Connections 4 flights into MCO and take advantage of the valet parking, business center, and multiple nonstops available from CMH.
Third, I wouldn't necessarily call LCK a less desirable facility. Sure, it is a bit farther away from parts of the metro area, but it is a brand new facility at an airport that only sees n average of 116 movements a day. For a scheduled charter airline like Southeast, it's a nice fit. I'm not sure what landing fees, PFC's, etc are at LCK compared to CMH, but my guess would be that they are cheaper.
As for America West and their gate leases...I'm not completely sure how extensive it is (i.e. shared concessions, landing fees, etc), all I know is that they're continuing to pay for them, and it appears like they will until the lease runs out in 2004. And yes, the airport put a lot of effort and money into America West's facilities at CMH. That's why the airport, as well as the city of Columbus and the State of Ohio feel stabbed in the back by America West's decision. The airport was not notified of America West's plans until THE NIGHT BEFORE the announcement of the hub closure. There's no way the airport could have predicted that America West would all of a sudden close up shop in Columbus. Look at USAirways in Pittsburgh and American in St. Louis. Both the airlines and cities have/had been in extensive talks about the future of their respective hubs. America West did NONE of that. That's why you have to pay an extra dollar more per hour if you'd like to park at the garage at Port Columbus (long term lot prices have remained the same), not because of extra gates.
I think there are several reasons that Southeast was brought to Rickenbacker. First of all, the terminal isn't being marketed for scheduled passenger airlines, but as a charter/scheduled charter specific facility. This fits well into Southeast general business scheme, as many of their airports are secondary (SFB instead of MCO, PIE instead of TPA, and ABE instead of PHL).
Second, while CMH is closer to the Columbus central business district, as well as the more affluent areas of Columbus and Central Ohio, driving distance is a secondary aspect for the price-conscious leisure traveler. If Columbus residents have no qualms about driving down to Dayton to take AirTran to Orlando, I doubt they'll mind the 30 minute drive from Hilliard to LCK. So for those looking for the ultra-cheap $123 fare to SFB on Southeast, I think they'll put up with a few extra minutes of driving time. Those that want the moderately cheap $158 fare to MCO on Southwest, they'll have the convenience of CMH and nonstop access to Orlando's premier airport, and for the Delta SkyMiles members that are attending a conference in Orlando or cashing in on miles, they can take one of Delta Connections 4 flights into MCO and take advantage of the valet parking, business center, and multiple nonstops available from CMH.
Third, I wouldn't necessarily call LCK a less desirable facility. Sure, it is a bit farther away from parts of the metro area, but it is a brand new facility at an airport that only sees n average of 116 movements a day. For a scheduled charter airline like Southeast, it's a nice fit. I'm not sure what landing fees, PFC's, etc are at LCK compared to CMH, but my guess would be that they are cheaper.
As for America West and their gate leases...I'm not completely sure how extensive it is (i.e. shared concessions, landing fees, etc), all I know is that they're continuing to pay for them, and it appears like they will until the lease runs out in 2004. And yes, the airport put a lot of effort and money into America West's facilities at CMH. That's why the airport, as well as the city of Columbus and the State of Ohio feel stabbed in the back by America West's decision. The airport was not notified of America West's plans until THE NIGHT BEFORE the announcement of the hub closure. There's no way the airport could have predicted that America West would all of a sudden close up shop in Columbus. Look at USAirways in Pittsburgh and American in St. Louis. Both the airlines and cities have/had been in extensive talks about the future of their respective hubs. America West did NONE of that. That's why you have to pay an extra dollar more per hour if you'd like to park at the garage at Port Columbus (long term lot prices have remained the same), not because of extra gates.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #14
I would think the city would welcome any additional service from Columbus following the loss of HP's Hub. The city keeps harping to the other carriers about non-stops to the west coast. Why not from LCK? Southeast could really take advantage of its single presence at LCK.
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