Summer 2008 Schedule Changes

[Mach85ER]

Hey Mark,

I just noticed that ORD-DME is listed as a 777 in RES. Is this a definite change? Or are they trying to see if people are willing to purchase F/C? Also, any clue when the PEK route will be a final award?

It may be the result of a couple of problems with the 767 on that route. There is a problem with the accuracy of the autopilot in altitude hold. Russia uses meters instead of feet, the 767 has only a "100's" min knob function, I think the 777 can do "10's". The conversion to meters is the problem, not even.

The range/payload may be the other problem. You might be pulling people or cargo on the 767, although it used to fly CDG-LAX which is farther. I don't know the numbers on this one.

 

[FWAAA]

Hey Mark,

I just noticed that ORD-DME is listed as a 777 in RES. Is this a definite change? Or are they trying to see if people are willing to purchase F/C? Also, any clue when the PEK route will be a final award?

I noticed that also, but the seat map still shows a 767.

PEK should be considered a final award, since the time for objection has passed by now.

Saw yesterday that Maxjet is asking DOT for USAir's PHL-China award due to Parker's running of the mouth about the PHL DL terminal move, but that's unlikely to go anywhere.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

It may be the result of a couple of problems with the 767 on that route. There is a problem with the accuracy of the autopilot in altitude hold. Russia uses meters instead of feet, the 767 has only a "100's" min knob function, I think the 777 can do "10's". The conversion to meters is the problem, not even.

The range/payload may be the other problem. You might be pulling people or cargo on the 767, although it used to fly CDG-LAX which is farther. I don't know the numbers on this one.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but doesn't DL use 767's on their flights to SVO? What is/are the differences between the DL vs. AA 767 cockpits?

 

[Mach85ER]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but doesn't DL use 767's on their flights to SVO? What is/are the differences between the DL vs. AA 767 cockpits?

Not a stupid question. I'm wondering myself since finding out that many others fly 767's into airspace using meters. At the moment, AA doesn't except for the 777's.

At this point, I'm wondering about the credibility of what I heard. <_<

 

[MAH4546]

Not sure what is going on with ORD-DME. As far as I know, it is supposed to be a 767. It is easily within a 767's range. Aeroflot flies 767s on LAX-SVO, and TransAero's MIA-DME route launching next year will be 767s as well. Both routes are much longer than ORD-DME.

Also, another thing to note is that today Spirit applied for Ft. Lauderdale-Cartagena. Last time they applied for a new route to Colombia - Ft. Lauderdale-Barranquilla - they gave it up after AA announced service to BAQ a month after Spirit applied. I have a hard time believing AA will let Spirit be alone in Cartagena, especially since CTG is now Open Skies and there are no frequency/slot restrictions to fly there. So we might be seeing MIA-CTG on 02Mar08.

 

[IORFA]

All I know is, that they have sold F/C and B/C seats according to RES. When I checked AA.com, they also showed 3 class service last night. Who knows, maybe it is just a mistake or an experiment to guage the interest in F/C. Plus, Mark, I wouldn't say AA would never leave PDX-DFW, just look how far it has fallen in the last few years. Shamefull comes to mind.

 

[MAH4546]

All I know is, that they have sold F/C and B/C seats according to RES. When I checked AA.com, they also showed 3 class service last night. Who knows, maybe it is just a mistake or an experiment to guage the interest in F/C. Plus, Mark, I wouldn't say AA would never leave PDX-DFW, just look how far it has fallen in the last few years. Shamefull comes to mind.

Shameful or not, Portland is one of the 25 largest markets in the country. They absolutely need to serve Portland. No ifs, ands, or buts. It might be a token presence, but it is never going to leave the AA network. Never.

 

[IORFA]

I wouldn't say Never around AA. Only serving DFW non-stop can't help with contracts. There are way too many other options to get from PDX to the NE, Mid Atlantic, SE, etc. than going through DFW. I wouldn't send my employees on an extra 2-3 hour trip unless it was really inexpensive. Thus the flight probably wouldn't make money.DEN, SLC, LAS, CLE would all be better. Christ going through SEA would be faster, just not any fun. I understand the desire to make money. I just don't think it is realistic to expect every flight to make money everytime it takes off. There is way too much competition out there for that to happen. At some point, you need to have a minimal presence with attractive options to attract the premium fliers. PDX won't have that with 4 80's a day to DFW. That doesn't count. PDX is way too big for that.

 

[MAH4546]

I wouldn't say Never around AA. Only serving DFW non-stop can't help with contracts. There are way too many other options to get from PDX to the NE, Mid Atlantic, SE, etc. than going through DFW. I wouldn't send my employees on an extra 2-3 hour trip unless it was really inexpensive. Thus the flight probably wouldn't make money.DEN, SLC, LAS, CLE would all be better. Christ going through SEA would be faster, just not any fun. I understand the desire to make money. I just don't think it is realistic to expect every flight to make money everytime it takes off. There is way too much competition out there for that to happen. At some point, you need to have a minimal presence with attractive options to attract the premium fliers. PDX won't have that with 4 80's a day to DFW. That doesn't count. PDX is way too big for that.

Only serving DFW from Portland doesn't help getting Portland local business traffic, but who cares? AA doesn't. They need to serve Portland for thier Dallas fliers, for their Miami fliers, for their Houston fliers, who are still easily able to make a connection to Portland, among others. You are looking at this way too one-sided. It isn't about serving the residents of Portland, its about serving frequent fliers in other markets - especially Dallas.

So what if they have a token presence? It doesn't really matter to a flyer in Dallas, as long as he can get there.

They will never pull out of Portland, Oregon. It is an absolutely essential market to serve out of Dallas. They aren't pulling out. Never.

 

[IORFA]

So says you. CO can do exactly the same as you point out, and with a Northern option as well. I don't hold out any hope of keeping DFW around long term. With no other options, premium fliers will change. DFW O/D will not keep this around forever there are way too many other options. Your argument about DFW could also easily be turned around and be ORD instead. ORD-PDX is an essential market to ORD and competeing against UA. Don't forget all the other markets AA is big in. The NE in particular is now cut off. NY with the big push is shut out. They have way better options than going out of their way to DFW to get to PDX. I work for the airline, and won't do that. So like you said, one of the 25 largest metro areas, and as you say "token" presence. WOO HOO. So we should be happy we have what we have I guess. At least I still have a ride to EPT's, for now. Sounds like a mistake to me.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

So says you. CO can do exactly the same as you point out, and with a Northern option as well. I don't hold out any hope of keeping DFW around long term. With no other options, premium fliers will change. DFW O/D will not keep this around forever there are way too many other options. Your argument about DFW could also easily be turned around and be ORD instead. ORD-PDX is an essential market to ORD and competeing against UA. Don't forget all the other markets AA is big in. The NE in particular is now cut off. NY with the big push is shut out. They have way better options than going out of their way to DFW to get to PDX. I work for the airline, and won't do that. So like you said, one of the 25 largest metro areas, and as you say "token" presence. WOO HOO. So we should be happy we have what we have I guess. At least I still have a ride to EPT's, for now. Sounds like a mistake to me.

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I've been "sitting here" watching the "back and forth" between you and Mark, ( I have LARGE respect for you both), and I wholeheartedly Agree with you IORFA.
MANY of the routes dropped by HDQ from ORD is shameful...(PDX/ANC/YVR/YYC/YEG come to mind)

DAM* IT, I'd even have respect for AA if they ran CR7's on those routes.

 

[MAH4546]

So says you. CO can do exactly the same as you point out, and with a Northern option as well. I don't hold out any hope of keeping DFW around long term. With no other options, premium fliers will change. DFW O/D will not keep this around forever there are way too many other options. Your argument about DFW could also easily be turned around and be ORD instead. ORD-PDX is an essential market to ORD and competeing against UA. Don't forget all the other markets AA is big in. The NE in particular is now cut off. NY with the big push is shut out. They have way better options than going out of their way to DFW to get to PDX. I work for the airline, and won't do that. So like you said, one of the 25 largest metro areas, and as you say "token" presence. WOO HOO. So we should be happy we have what we have I guess. At least I still have a ride to EPT's, for now. Sounds like a mistake to me.

With all due respect, I see what you are saying, but I three years from now when AA is still flying to PDX you'll see how you were wrong.

I entirely agree with you that what AA is doing isn't smart. They are alienating customers in Portland. Their presence their is sad and it should be more. Though they are staying for the long run.

Dallas is the second largest connecting hub in the United States, and third largest connecting hub in the world. AA will have zero problems keeping their DFW-PDX flights full. Dozens of markets are served with only 2-4x daily service from Dallas and nothing more, and have been for years, and do just fine.

 

[Skymess]

Dallas is the second largest connecting hub in the United States, and third largest connecting hub in the world. AA will have zero problems keeping their DFW-PDX flights full. Dozens of markets are served with only 2-4x daily service from Dallas and nothing more, and have been for years, and do just fine.

There's just the problem that the international base at Dallas is shrinking and the connections out of there aren't as plentiful as Chicago or NY. We have no alternate good places to even have Portland people code share to because God knows the west coast bases are like ghost bases internationally.

 

[flyJOE]

I entirely agree with you that what AA is doing isn't smart. They are alienating customers in Portland. Their presence their is sad and it should be more. Though they are staying for the long run.

Dallas is the second largest connecting hub in the United States, and third largest connecting hub in the world. AA will have zero problems keeping their DFW-PDX flights full. Dozens of markets are served with only 2-4x daily service from Dallas and nothing more, and have been for years, and do just fine.

Absolutely, DFW-PDX will not go anywhere. It may just be a handful of MD-80s. There is enough local O&D pax to justify AA service on this route, not taking into consideration connecting feed from the S/SE USA through DFW and DFW is not too far south to make this connection. A few months back I did CLT-DFW-YVR & I could have connected through ORD, DEN, SEA, etc...

http://paxdata.airlineempires.net/topcities.php?origin=DFW (look at #39)

 

[Capejet]

Absolutely, DFW-PDX will not go anywhere. It may just be a handful of MD-80s. There is enough local O&D pax to justify AA service on this route, not taking into consideration connecting feed from the S/SE USA through DFW and DFW is not too far south to make this connection. A few months back I did CLT-DFW-YVR & I could have connected through ORD, DEN, SEA, etc...

http://paxdata.airlineempires.net/topcities.php?origin=DFW (look at #39)

Also, other routes from ORD have been cut, while the DFW nonstops have continued to operate. SMF, OAK, ONT, YYC, YVR, COS are all markets that are served only from DFW now.

It does not make sense for AA to continue flying money losing routes if they do not see anyway of turning the performance of the route around in the future. AA has the highest costs in the industry and it is going to have to do a better job than its competitors of figuring out where to best allocate its rescources.