The problem is that the tax laws created this mess in addition to bad management. Giving tax breaks to startups has allow and encouraged entrepreneurs to start new domestic LCC's. The overcapacity is domestic seats. Too many LCC's starting up and competing with one another. The legacy carriers costs are too high for the fares they are now forced to charge compared to LCC's as they struggle to stay in business. Eventually, the tax breaks will not protect the LCC's and they will start dropping like flies.
Survival Of The "un" Fittest. Forbes.com
- Thread starter Wretched Wrench
- Start date
777 fixer
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- Jul 21, 2004
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You have to wonder how much the author really knows about the airline industry.
"The historical intent of bankruptcy law was to provide a mechanism for the orderly dissolution of a business--an intent still observed in many countries today. "
If he was familiar with the airline industry as a whole he would know that many foreign airlines are kept alive by direct and indirect government aid. Sabena in it's 70 some odd year history made a profit a total of two. Air France was racking up huge losses in the early 90's. And Alitalia is on govenment aided life support as we speak. So as you can see the governments in other countries do their utmost to keep their flag carriers in business.
"The historical intent of bankruptcy law was to provide a mechanism for the orderly dissolution of a business--an intent still observed in many countries today. "
If he was familiar with the airline industry as a whole he would know that many foreign airlines are kept alive by direct and indirect government aid. Sabena in it's 70 some odd year history made a profit a total of two. Air France was racking up huge losses in the early 90's. And Alitalia is on govenment aided life support as we speak. So as you can see the governments in other countries do their utmost to keep their flag carriers in business.
mrfish3726
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- Jul 7, 2004
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NOVQAT,
Name the tax breaks that F9 has received please???? We operate in Denver with the same fees and taxes that ALL carriers have here. UAL is exempt being in BK; they owe Denver millions in back leases and taxes that they won't pay. The BK judge said that they have to pay these leases, which UAL has under appeal. F9 has had no tax relief here in Denver. PLEASE prove other wise! Name the tax relief that other LCC's receive, PLEASE! And if a deal with the city of Denver is worked out for more gate expansion, a new hangar, parts on hand it's because they know that F9 is a good sound business for the community, unlike others that continually screw over the city of Denver.
Granted F9 was awarded a loan by the ATSB after 9/11. But, let me remind you sir that F9 has repaid that loan already in full way ahead of time. And the government has made millions already off AWA and F9 stock that they got in exchange for the loans.
SO please, quit blaming your companies ills on the LCC's!
Name the tax breaks that F9 has received please???? We operate in Denver with the same fees and taxes that ALL carriers have here. UAL is exempt being in BK; they owe Denver millions in back leases and taxes that they won't pay. The BK judge said that they have to pay these leases, which UAL has under appeal. F9 has had no tax relief here in Denver. PLEASE prove other wise! Name the tax relief that other LCC's receive, PLEASE! And if a deal with the city of Denver is worked out for more gate expansion, a new hangar, parts on hand it's because they know that F9 is a good sound business for the community, unlike others that continually screw over the city of Denver.
Granted F9 was awarded a loan by the ATSB after 9/11. But, let me remind you sir that F9 has repaid that loan already in full way ahead of time. And the government has made millions already off AWA and F9 stock that they got in exchange for the loans.
SO please, quit blaming your companies ills on the LCC's!
mrfish3726
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- Jul 7, 2004
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Let me also remind you of a story. It was a story about an airline (un-named) that courted many cities for a billion dollar maintenance facility. They touted how much they would do for any community that would give them the tax breaks they needed to open this state of the art facility. One city was dumb enough to take the bait, Indianapolis. Now, tell me this isn't a true story were the city of INDY got screwed in the end? And the company only moved there because INDY offered them better tax breaks than any other city could. :down:
So give me a FRICKING BREAK, PLEASE!!!!!
So give me a FRICKING BREAK, PLEASE!!!!!
MCI transplant
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- Jun 4, 2003
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<_< Somehow this story sound familar! Let's hope you won't be able to transpose MCI, for INDY!!!!!!!! :unsure:mrfish3726 said:Let me also remind you of a story. It was a story about an airline (un-named) that courted many cities for a billion dollar maintenance facility. They touted how much they would do for any community that would give them the tax breaks they needed to open this state of the art facility. One city was dumb enough to take the bait, Indianapolis. Now, tell me this isn't a true story were the city of INDY got screwed in the end? And the company only moved there because INDY offered them better tax breaks than any other city could. :down:
So give me a FRICKING BREAK, PLEASE!!!!!
[post="178594"][/post]
The government guaranteed the loans. They may have gotten a fee, possibly not even that.It would be the banks who collected the interest on the outstanding amount. In the short period of time the loans have been out. It was not millions they madeof AWA and FRNT.mrfish3726 said:
First off Fly, President Jimmy E. Carter ( D, as in Democrat ) signed aviation's deregulation act into law. Secondly, outside of CAL where are these success stories in the airline industry? Even CAL has threatened to reenter the BK court if more enter the BK Club. LLC are still a menacing threat to the bottom line and to every airline employee in the industry.
The internet as turned the airline industy, into a cheap form of transportation, and in the process, has cheapened our once proud carreers. The flying public has not been educated about our plight. They ( paxs ) just sit there wanting steak and a smile for $ 199.00 R/T to the coast.
There no promises, only the promise of more concessions and or less wages. The entire industry is heading into the tiolet and fast.
The final flush is almost here (UAL and USAir sit there waiting), but the BK courts hold the plunger.
The longer the courts let them stay the worse we all smell.
The internet as turned the airline industy, into a cheap form of transportation, and in the process, has cheapened our once proud carreers. The flying public has not been educated about our plight. They ( paxs ) just sit there wanting steak and a smile for $ 199.00 R/T to the coast.
There no promises, only the promise of more concessions and or less wages. The entire industry is heading into the tiolet and fast.
The final flush is almost here (UAL and USAir sit there waiting), but the BK courts hold the plunger.
The longer the courts let them stay the worse we all smell.
mrfish3726 said:Let me also remind you of a story. It was a story about an airline (un-named) that courted many cities for a billion dollar maintenance facility. They touted how much they would do for any community that would give them the tax breaks they needed to open this state of the art facility. One city was dumb enough to take the bait, Indianapolis. Now, tell me this isn't a true story were the city of INDY got screwed in the end? And the company only moved there because INDY offered them better tax breaks than any other city could. :down:
So give me a FRICKING BREAK, PLEASE!!!!!
[post="178594"][/post]
Actually Oklahoma City offered UAL a much better package but UAL chose Indy because of the better "quality of life". The head of UAL flat out told the mayor of OKC he could not ask his employees to move to such a pit of a city no matter how good the tax breaks his company would receive.
:blink: Now that the "pitty party" has started we in this industry have to insure our future that the ship builders did not. W/O the experienced workers the US based ship builders could not train the younger workers and we know how many of the worlds cruisers are built in the US. With a strong union representing our interests we may have a future in this industry.
- Thread Starter
- #25
Well, Padre, the issues are bigger than which union we have. Jimmy Hoffa and Mike Quill together would not be able to save us from inept management and cheap-labor outsourcing. There are forces at work out there that are very difficult to counteract. I am not waving the flag of any particular union, but NWA has serious outsourcing issues, as does Alaska.
Wretched Wrench said:
Well I disagree with that. If we had proper union representation, or more specifically a properly structured labor movement then we could set up standard contracts with portable seniority. At the end of the day we know that hundreds of thousands of people are going to board airplanes and go places every day, if the airlines choose to make money thats their choice, but we wont be the ones taking the cuts anymore, we dont see the fuel companies agreeing to slash what they charge because these guys arent making money do we?
SkyLiner said:
Actually it does mean one very important thing.
Experience = wants more than the company wants to pay.
Apples and oranges. In that sentence (and overall throughout the article) he was talking about misuse of bankruptcy law. The United States airline industry was being used as a recent example. It appears that you read the intent of the article backwards.777 fixer said:
Father Guido Sarducci said:
Actually, the demise of the U.S. shipbuilding industry had exactly NOTHING to do with the presence or absence of skilled labor. It had everything to do with the fact that shipping and passenger lines (aka the cruise industry today) could get the same or better ship built in foreign shipyards for less money.
And, even though I am a union member myself, it must be said that the major difference in the cost of building a ship in the U.S. vs. a foreign location was labor costs. Great Britain had an extensive shipbuilding industry at one time. I think it should tell you something that the new Queen Mary II was built in a shipyard in France.
AAquila said:
Nor do they care--about our "plight" or about being educated on the subject.
But, ask yourself. Do you think twice about shopping in a non-union store when the prices are 20% lower than at the unionized store? Do you refuse to shop at Wal-mart because of the almost total absence of employee benefits? Do you refuse to wear Levi brand jeans because they moved all their plants outside the U.S.? For that matter, do you refuse to wear jeans since none are actually made in the U.S. anymore?
The selfishness and self-centeredness of the American public is boundless. Case in point--people demanding Congressional action because the cost of gas has risen to almost one third of what the rest of the world pays for gas. The outrage! It's my Constitutional right to have cheap gas! Destroy the environment; lay waste to the Alaskan wilderness. Do whatever is necessary to get the cost of filling up my Hummer down!
(But, don't get me started.
)
