The Pensions Are Gone!

[goingboeing]

This is a bad day for ALL AIRLINE EMPLOYEES.I'm sorry to hear that UAL employees will now get less for retirement.It is a matter of time till it comes to AA and all other carriers.
I wish all UAL employees the very best whatever the outcome is for your airline.

 

[justaumechanic]

We have been hearing for weeks how the unions are going to stand up and fight.. Strike if the judge gives away the pensions and violates the contracts.

From what I can see United is still flying.. No picket lines are up.

Do you think the unions will actually fight or are they just making noise?

My guess.. Business as usual.. Welcome to the wonderful world of commercial aviation United employee's..

 

[synchronicity]

We have been hearing for weeks how the unions are going to stand up and fight.. Strike if the judge gives away the pensions and violates the contracts.

From what I can see United is still flying.. No picket lines are up.

Do you think the unions will actually fight or are they just making noise?

My guess.. Business as usual.. Welcome to the wonderful world of commercial aviation United employee's..

[post="268216"][/post]​

I don't know if you were one of them, but way back when, shortly before UAL declared BK, a number of mechanics were saying that BK would be better than accepting pay cuts and making other concessions. "Let the judge decide!" was said many a time.

My thought was that this showed that, just as I don't want BK attorneys fixing airplanes, I don't want airplane mechanics evaluating BK law.

Back then I said that BK was worse than almost any concessions that would be made at the time. In BK the company is effectively run for the benefit of creditors. That's not good for employees.

This is just the latest of "why working for a bankrupt company is really really bad".

Problem is that a unionized workforce thinks in terms of collective action, strong negotiation "brinksmanship" tactics. That can work quite well when a company is making money. When a company is bankrupt, they don't accomplish a darn thing.

In a Union, the downside is that pay is mainly based on seniority, not quality of work. The upside is, or at least was, job security and therefore little need to worry about alternatives in the marketplace.

That's coming to a screeching halt. This is why I keep saying that unionized UAL employees have to stop thinking about collective action to stop the company from demanding cuts, and start thinking about alternative types of employment as much as possible. Wages and benefits will be cut, like it or not. Since the response for everyone is "not", the way to stop that is not "strike the airline" (although you can do that, but all it will accomplish is complete job and compensation loss), but rather "find someplace else to go and get the heck away from this sinking ship".

If you think or know that you're worth more than UAL is willing to pay you, then go out and get it, 'cause no matter what you do now, UAL ain't going to pay you that.

-synchronicity

 

[Checking it Out]

Will United go by the way of Eastern?

From what I see it looks like United and the judge will be throwing out the collective bargaining agreement for the Mechanic's in short order.

We all have a tough road ahead of us, if we plan on staying in the Airline profession.

 

[Boomer]

Will United go by the way of Eastern?

From what I see it looks like United and the judge will be throwing out the collective bargaining agreement for the Mechanic's in short order.

We all have a tough road ahead of us, if we plan on staying in the Airline profession.

[post="268261"][/post]​

--------------------------------

"Checking it Out Today, 02:11 AM Post #1

Well the pensions have been eliminated at United, Several of the Unions have voiced their concerns and have threatened a strike if this happens. At United Look here for article Amfa has made some claims that all 8 Airlines will stand befind them (Mechanics from Eight Airlines Pledge All Available Resources to Back Colleagues at United Airlines CHICAGO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 5, 2005) Will Amfa call a Strike since the members voted?...

...I believe Amfa has made claims they will strike, with the coffers empty to the point the NEC has taken paycuts. This will be a true test! Will Amfa call for a strike or is it all talk and no action? Or will they wait and follow the Skirt tails of the flight Attendants. Or will they Allow the BK judge to throw out the contract?

Lets not forget Amfa has failed in every turn to negotiate anything that will benefit the membership at any of the Airlines they have a presence at since 9/11. Except for SWA who gave them a letter. (Take it or leave it).

The Clock is ticking!"
------------------------------------------------------

Two different posts, 8 minutes apart, from a TWU flunky. The TWU is always ready to challenge someone else but never fails to run when put on the spot.

 

[Winglet]

Judge Eugene Wedoff said the settlement, while disputed, does not violate any law or United's collective bargaining agreement . . .

This blub from the AP indicates that the judge says that killing the pensions does not violate the contract . . . hence no legal recourse to self-help.

Looks like Tilton's got everyone by the short hairs and he knows it. Might as well just decertify the unions and throw yourselves on management's mercy. Bush's judicial agenda is going full steam ahead. Next South and Central American Flight Attendants will be called in to replace all those overpaid Americans. Globalization, you know.

 

[synchronicity]

. . . hence no legal recourse to self-help.

[post="268278"][/post]​

There's always one form of self-help that can't be taken away, which is the one I keep recommending to everyone who believes that "this" (be it pay cuts, pension removal, etc.) is the last straw.

That is, quit the company (either retire early if you can or just up and quit) and find alternate employment.

And from the (relatively) few people my wife interacts with, this choice is being made by more and more UAL employees.

If the market is pricing labor above what UAL is willing to pay, UAL has a problem, and "The Unions" ain't it.

-synchronicity

(discussion of what happens to the industry as a whole if they can not afford the price market places on labor they need is reserved for another time)

 

[767jetz]

I don't know if you were one of them, but way back when, shortly before UAL declared BK, a number of mechanics were saying that BK would be better than accepting pay cuts and making other concessions. "Let the judge decide!" was said many a time.

[post="268256"][/post]​

synchronicity,

Well said.

 

[Boomer]

This blub from the AP indicates that the judge says that killing the pensions does not violate the contract . . . hence no legal recourse to self-help.

Looks like Tilton's got everyone by the short hairs and he knows it. Might as well just decertify the unions and throw yourselves on management's mercy. Bush's judicial agenda is going full steam ahead. Next South and Central American Flight Attendants will be called in to replace all those overpaid Americans. Globalization, you know.

[post="268278"][/post]​

----------------------------------------------------------

Winglet, et al,

Wedoff was severely spanked by the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals last Friday, so relying on his determinations as to whether voiding the pension amounts to abrogation of the contract is treading the edge of credulity. Fly supporting you would be proof that reason has been lost.

 

[spacewaitress]

Next South and Central American Flight Attendants will be called in to replace all those overpaid Americans. Globalization, you know.

I heard there is actually a school that trains flight attendants (it's located in South America somewhere) for that purpose. It's just a matter of time...either that or the robots someone else was mentioning earlier.


Okay, so the pension issue does not violate our agreements according to the judge..what about abrogation completely? The judge has alluded to the fact that without an agreement he doesn't feel he can legally compel people to work. Can he legally thwart a union action then? That's the 64K question. I guess we'll see (maybe) by the end of the week if AMFA goes out.

 

[767jetz]

Expect some delays in the 1113c filing with AMFA and the IAM while agreements are hammered out.

Space, sounds like you are disappointed that the AFA won't be striking, and hope that AMFA will. I thought you were only concerned with the flight attendant's affairs?

 

[MCI transplant]

Expect some delays in the 1113c filing with AMFA and the IAM while agreements are hammered out.

Space, sounds like you are disappointed that the AFA won't be striking, and hope that AMFA will. I thought you were only concerned with the flight attendant's affairs?

[post="268296"][/post]​

<_< What makes you think they won't????

 

[spacewaitress]

Expect some delays in the 1113c filing with AMFA and the IAM while agreements are hammered out.

Space, sounds like you are disappointed that the AFA won't be striking, and hope that AMFA will. I thought you were only concerned with the flight attendant's affairs?

[post="268296"][/post]​

No, I'm not disappointed, just looking for a timeline. This from AMFA site May 10.

"... May 11th is the start of the trial under 1113c of the bankruptcy code. This trial will go forward. Currently it is scheduled to run until 19 May. During that time we may be voting on some type of agreement. It may be a consensual agreement reached at the table, or it may be the last offer on the table when the negotiators cut off talks. While court actions are being initiated, we would be voting, perhaps for one final time at United Airlines. If the membership accepts what is placed before them, the process would stop.

If the membership once again, does not ratify an agreement, then the judge would most likely rule. Where that ruling could take us is to be the subject of future updates.

The point today is this: Until the National Director calls for a strike on UAL, we continue to work.

The negotiations committee will most likely be releasing an update very shortly that will detail more of the company's refusal to provide Trust, Commitment and Stability to this membership. Barring any last minute epiphany by UAL, that update should make for interesting reading."

Oh boy, another 10 days.

 

[JungleClone]

synchronicity,

Very well put. And you're already starting to see it at many of the line stations throughout the system. With the pay and benefit cuts, it is becoming harder than ever to attract new employees, whether it be full or part-time, to the line stations. Given that fact, and the stranglehold that WHQDA has on authorizing replacements for employees who leave, most of the line stations are operating at bare minimum manpower staffing levels. It's only going to get worse as time goes on because I'm convinced more paycuts will be coming. Where else are they going to get their cost cuts from to offset the price of fuel?