The Plan

[AMFAMAN]

That being said, it is managements responsibility to improve the productivity, either by scheduling and staffing differently or by working with the unions to eliminate counter productive work rules.

[post="304795"][/post]​

Once again, name such a work rule on the maintenance side that is unproductive compared to WN. For every 1 you name, I'll give you at least 5 WN rules that are more unproductive. Waiting on you....

 

[Oneflyer]

Once again, name such a work rule on the maintenance side that is unproductive compared to WN. For every 1 you name, I'll give you at least 5 WN rules that are more unproductive.

You're a bit of a biased source don't you think? Clearly you want to remove the TWU and bring in the AMFA, but if someone were to show that the TWU contract actually has more restrictive work rules then that would be a major reason NOT to bring the AMFA. So it really doesn't matter what I say, because you would never be willing to admit that you were wrong. Your agenda and hatred blinds you to the facts.

 

[AMFAMAN]

You're a bit of a biased source don't you think? Clearly you want to remove the TWU and bring in the AMFA, but if someone were to show that the TWU contract actually has more restrictive work rules then that would be a major reason NOT to bring the AMFA. So it really doesn't matter what I say, because you would never be willing to admit that you were wrong. Your agenda and hatred blinds you to the facts.

[post="304871"][/post]​

No I asked you to back your words up with facts and you have chosen to change your story into a twu vs. AMFA discussion. Once again, back up your statements with some facts. There is no bias here, just a copy of both AA and WN's contracts and waiting on you to fire away.

 

[scorpian]

You're a bit of a biased source don't you think? Clearly you want to remove the TWU and bring in the AMFA, but if someone were to show that the TWU contract actually has more restrictive work rules then that would be a major reason NOT to bring the AMFA. So it really doesn't matter what I say, because you would never be willing to admit that you were wrong. Your agenda and hatred blinds you to the facts.

[post="304871"][/post]​

Just exactly what the hell are you talking about? What is this unproductive crap your swillin out? 15 years ago Pratt n Whittney whatched us do a gearbox change in tule and they were blown away by the turn time we had compared to their mechs. Its a known fact that tulsa's engine shops are some of the best in the industry. What are these work rules your jawing about, just name one! Really just one!

 

[eolesen]

Oneflyer, I only wish the average L5 salary were $100K, but it's probably closer to $75K based on the min of about $55K and a max is around 92K.


Mechanics want an example? How 'bout the cap on outsourcing of overhauls? WN doesn't have a cap on outsourcing of line or heavy maintenance as far as I know. If they do, I'm wrong.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Mechanics want an example? How 'bout the cap on outsourcing of overhauls? WN doesn't have a cap on outsourcing of line or heavy maintenance as far as I know. If they do, I'm wrong.

[post="305298"][/post]​

First off the line cap - there is none. The restrictions for manning have been ruled in a prior arbitration to count towards the twu as a whole. As long as Fleet Service works there, no maintenance manning is required. Prime example, HNL, FLL, MCO(until the TWA merger), to name a few.

Now to overhaul:

It is the intention of the Company to insure that the predominant volume of work under Cross Service, Base Maintenance and Maintenance Service Agreements be performed by the Company employees. It is further understood, in no event, that the volume of work be less than equal to the work performed by other carriers for American Airlines under Cross Service, Base Maintenance and Line Maintenance Service Agreements.

Furthermore:

It is understood that nothing in this Article requires the maintenance of the 121 present volume of work.

Now I would give you WN's but the pdf is giving me an error right now, is was working yesterday.
http://www.amfa11.com/contracts/swa_mechanics.pdf

 

[Wild Onion]

AA's unionized labor force has to become more productive to compete with WN, it is an undisputable fact that AA is less productive than WN. That being said, it is managements responsibility to improve the productivity, either by scheduling and staffing differently or by working with the unions to eliminate counter productive work rules.

[post="304795"][/post]​

Where are you getting your information? How do you figure we're indisputably less productive? Facts and figures please.

[post="304807"][/post]​

Honest question: Do the FA's at WN help clean the cabin?

 

[eolesen]

Yep. So do the agents and pilots. They don't seem to have the same "not my job" mentality.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

They don't seem to have the same "not my job" mentality.

[post="305597"][/post]​

Yep, they seem happy and well-fed, too. Somebody must be treating them right.

.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yep.  So do the agents and pilots.  They don't seem to have the same "not my job" mentality.

[post="305597"][/post]​

Do you know that for a fact?

I question the logic or the truth to the claim of the pilots cleaning the cabin. Shouldnt he be preparing for the flight? I very much doubt that pilots at SWA or any other major airline are routinely out there cleaning the cabin.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Do you know that for a fact?

I question the logic or the truth to the claim of the pilots cleaning the cabin. Shouldnt he be preparing for the flight? I very much doubt that pilots at SWA or any other major airline are routinely out there cleaning the cabin.

[post="305665"][/post]​

Oh, come on, Bob. I have seen lots of our pilots picking up newspapers. They seldom venture beyond first class, though.

.

 

[eolesen]

Do you know that for a fact?

I question the logic or the truth to the claim of the pilots cleaning the cabin. Shouldnt he be preparing for the flight? I very much doubt that pilots at SWA or any other major airline are routinely out there cleaning the cabin.

[post="305665"][/post]​

WN's 20 minute quick-turn is only one of the most widely known and revered examples of productivity...

Bob, have you ever flown SWA? I have, and pilots, ramp agents, and gate agents actually work together to make a 20 minute quick turn happen. It's not too difficult to watch for yourself -- just book one of the hundreds of flights which operates thru MDW, PHX, STL, etc. and stay onboard.

(just waiting for someone follow up with pithy comments about how you can't afford a ticket on SWA anymore.... even though it costs less than a full tank of gas if you pre-plan three weeks out)

 

[TWU informer]

WN's 20 minute quick-turn is only one of the most widely known and revered examples of productivity...

Bob, have you ever flown SWA?  I have, and pilots, ramp agents, and gate agents actually work together to make a 20 minute quick turn happen.  It's not too difficult to watch for yourself -- just book one of the hundreds of flights which operates thru MDW, PHX, STL, etc. and stay onboard.

(just waiting for someone follow up with pithy comments about how you can't afford a ticket on SWA anymore.... even though it costs less than a full tank of gas if you pre-plan three weeks out)

[post="305698"][/post]​

If we could get the same overlap of duties from management, thin them out and lead by example, then maybe there would be favorable movement towards a more productive culture.

Why don't you begin, find someone to do your job and theirs, you leave and show us by example what you are talking about.

Of course most of us are still waiting for the "Show me the Shared Sacrifice" to take place. AA Management might have brought the TWU leadership in closer to the chest and get them pacified, but the grunts are still skeptical and waiting for shared sacrifice.

Maybe we could just work on getting a 20 minute management or engineer decision to lead by example?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I always love it when those with an apparent bias against labor or unions (or both) trot out the old "productivity" excuse:

"[Insert legacy airline of choice here] has more employees per [insert yardstick of choice here] than Southwest or Jetblue, so the problem is the employees (or their union, their workrules, etc)"

Nothing like comparing apples with oranges and claiming it proves something. Bennigans, Chilies, or whatever "full service" food chain has more employees per meal served (or customer, etc) than McDonalds or Burger King, but all that proves is that they have different business models - nothing more.

The same is true for the legacy/LCC comparison - claiming otherwise is nothing more than mathmatical sleight-of-hand. Only those with an agenda play such games.....

Jim

 

[corl737]

Do you know that for a fact?

I question the logic or the truth to the claim of the pilots cleaning the cabin. Shouldnt he be preparing for the flight? I very much doubt that pilots at SWA or any other major airline are routinely out there cleaning the cabin.

[post="305665"][/post]​

Yes, it's a FACT.

As a SWA Pilot I routinely help the FA clean the cabin, put tags on luggage that doesn't fit on board, carry strollers down to the ramp to be put in the bin, push wheelchairs up/down the jetway, .... should I go on?

There is only one goal at SWA -- get the jet out on time! Sitting on the ground doesn't make any money and every labor group understands that and no one has an issue with someone else helping out to achieve the common goal.

Sure, some turns you have more time than others (working maintenance issues would be a higher priority than crossing seatbelts in row 22) so you may not witness the same level of involvement at every stop. But after the routine duties of preparing for the next flight are complete, if you're not helping, your the problem. The fact is, when a SWA aircraft is at the gate, it isn't serviced, it's attacked! It's called UNITY and at SWA it goes from the bottom straight to the top of management!