The Truth Is A Hard Pill

[Bob Owens]

Fraternally,

Joseph C. Gordon
TWU International Representative

[post="185391"][/post]​

Isnt that the same Joe Gordon who was rejected by the members of DFW? It seems that the TWU takes those who the members reject and promotes them to positions where they are over those who the members elect. Our elected leaders are subordinate to the ones we reject! Yet the TWU still has the nerve to say that the members have control over the union!


Let me ask you this, dont you feel that a reject would have less loyalty to the members than someone who the members chose? This is one small example of how dysfuntional the TWU is. They fill the top ranks of the organization with people who the members reject and those same people then remove people who the members choose! Obviously these types of people would have absolutely no loyalty to the members and complete loyalty to the International that gives them their six figure salaries!

 

[will fix for food]

I dont think that anyone blames you guys for wanting or getting raises, however it does undermine the credibility of the company/unions arguement that we had to give such massive concessions.

[post="185478"][/post]​

Since day 1 of Eagle being bought by AMR it was drilled into our heads that we are two separate airlines. For years we have seen you get Leap checks, profit sharing, relatively decent pay, far better benefits, etc. When AMR was making big money we asked where our share was. The reply was always, " That's American's money, it's not for you." Well now the shoe is on the other foot. Eagle is making money. 16% profit last quarter, 8% of it that stayed at Eagle and 8% that went to American. Are we getting a decent chunk? No. We are being told that we have to help American get back on it's feet. Do you think that when you guys get on your feet again that we will be thrown a bone? No. We will get sent to the back of the bus again like we always do. That is why I and every other Eagle employee is insulted by the utterly moronic claims made by American employees that their concessions are paying for our raise.

Yea we're bitter, but we deserve to be.

But hey, I am a team player. If you guys think we shouldn't get a raise then I will stay at the old 1998 pay scale. My $1.85 raise isn't going to make a big impact in my life anyhow. But then it would be only fair for you to go back to your 1998 pay scale also, don't you think?

Any volunteers?

I didn't think so.

 

[AMFAMAN]

But hey, I am a team player. If you guys think we shouldn't get a raise then I will stay at the old 1998 pay scale. My $1.85 raise isn't going to make a big impact in my life anyhow. But then it would be only fair for you to go back to your 1998 pay scale also, don't you think?

Any volunteers?

I didn't think so.

[post="185737"][/post]​

FYI...I am making far less than 1998. My salary may be 7k a year more but with the loss of language, holidays, sick time, vc, etc, etc, etc, I am making less and paying for for medical, pre-funding and the likes. Real money, not adjusted for inflation is down since then. BTW...With OT during the late 90's we were making 20-30k(some higher) more a year than today.

As far as your contract, it's just another twu turd. If you are correct and I assume you would be about Eagles profits, you should be at least among the salaries of the profitable majors. That would put you over $30 an hour today.

 

[Bob Owens]

Since day 1 of Eagle being bought by AMR it was drilled into our heads that we are two separate airlines. For years we have seen you get Leap checks, profit sharing, relatively decent pay, far better benefits, etc. When AMR was making big money we asked where our share was. The reply was always, " That's American's money, it's not for you." Well now the shoe is on the other foot. Eagle is making money. 16% profit last quarter, 8% of it that stayed at Eagle and 8% that went to American. Are we getting a decent chunk? No. We are being told that we have to help American get back on it's feet. Do you think that when you guys get on your feet again that we will be thrown a bone? No. We will get sent to the back of the bus again like we always do. That is why I and every other Eagle employee is insulted by the utterly moronic claims made by American employees that their concessions are paying for our raise.

Yea we're bitter, but we deserve to be.

But hey, I am a team player. If you guys think we shouldn't get a raise then I will stay at the old 1998 pay scale. My $1.85 raise isn't going to make a big impact in my life anyhow. But then it would be only fair for you to go back to your 1998 pay scale also, don't you think?

Any volunteers?

I didn't think so.

[post="185737"][/post]​

1998 with all the benifits restored? Including holiday pay, double time, vacation etc? Yea I would go for that. The fact is that when we got the raise most guys ended up making the same as they did before the raise because OT was virtually eliminated.

By the way dont blame the AA guys for your lousy pay, blame the POS union you guys have. The same POS that we have. They are the ones who keep telling you that you should settle for less. They are the ones who agreed to language that penalizes you if you try to transfer over to AA. Instead of pointing fingers at each other why dont we work on getting rid of the TWU and getting a union that actually feels that mechanics deserve good pay?

So when are you going to start your AMFA drive? Or are you going to wait until after they convince AA to file for single carrier status and then see AA guys with 20 or 30 years put in transfers to all the smaller cities where you guys have maintenance?

 

[will fix for food]

1998 with all the benifits restored? Including holiday pay, double time, vacation etc?

I agree that you guys got really boned there. You were virtually brought down to our level and that is something I didn't want to see. I firmly believe that a rising tide lifts all boats. A good contract for you guys would have forced Eagle to pay us too, or there would have been a mass exodus. In the past they have actually given out of contract mid-term raises to stem the flow. It works in reverse too. If we had a good contract then when it is time for American to hire they might just have to sweeten the pot to attract candidates instead of just looking at a long flow-through list. Instead of seeing this though some of your guys just see that they aren't getting what they were getting in 1/02 so Eagle guys damn well better not get anything. It's clear from their postings that that is what's going through their heads and you can't convince me any different. Their ignorance and short-sightedness is off the scale.

By the way dont blame the AA guys for your lousy pay, ......

Rest assured I don't, but don't be bitter that we got a raise. If anyone saw what the raise was and what our actual pay was instead of just reading the self serving company and TWU press releases they might realize what's going on.

Nawww..who am I kidding. A penny was too much in the eyes of many of your coworkers.

BTW, the overall consensus at Eagle when your pay cuts came about was that noone wanted to see it. We actually felt bad for you guys despite the years of abuse from you. However, after your attitude over our pay raise showed itself everyone pretty much is of the opinion "F--k those guys." The company and the union didn't start that, you guys did.

[post="185779"][/post]​

 

[Bob Owens]

[post="185865"][/post]​

You guys?


I think that you are overly defensive on the issue. I doubt that they are concerned that YOU got raises, most would agree that your pay rates are too low. Like you pretty much said low mechanic rates anywhere are bad for mechanics everywhere. Its more that they feel the company and the Union were being dishonest. Maybe it could have been presented more tactfully but who ever said mechanics were great communicators or long sighted?

So when are you guys starting your AMFA drive?

 

[Rusty]

Rest assured I don't, but don't be bitter that we got a raise. If anyone saw what the raise was and what our actual pay was instead of just reading the self serving company and TWU press releases they might realize what's going on.

Nawww..who am I kidding. A penny was too much in the eyes of many of your coworkers.

BTW, the overall consensus at Eagle when your pay cuts came about was that noone wanted to see it. We actually felt bad for you guys despite the years of abuse from you. However, after your attitude over our pay raise showed itself everyone pretty much is of the opinion "F--k those guys." The company and the union didn't start that, you guys did.

Who is you guys??? Personally and I seriously doubt anyone has begrudged Eagle workers for getting a pay raise. Quite the opposite in my opinion, we are promoting a Craft and Class union to raise the bar for the entire mechanic craft and class.

I will admit that you are beginning to sound like you are promoting division. I have never seen anyone, not even the twu advocates not hope the best for you guys. I wouldn't mind if you guys made more at Eagle than at AA. Our fight is with the twu not Eagle workers.

 

[will fix for food]

Who is you guys???

I obviously know that not everyone is of the same mindset. That being said, I have read and heard alot of sentiments from American mechanics that seem an awfully lot like they believe that we don't deserve a raise while you are in concessions. I have read that on this very board with the "Our concessions are paying for Eagle raises" (or planes) argument that Dave spews about every other month. Right or wrong, if you were in our shoes I bet you would interpret it the exact same way.

I will admit that you are beginning to sound like you are promoting division.

No. But don't expect me or us to embrace the American mechanics with open arms after 20 years of being treated like dog s--t. I mean, where were you when things were good at American and lousy at Eagle? We sure didn't hear any talk from your side of the concourse of Solidarity and Brotherhood then..... Don't forget that it wasn't very long ago that one of the posters on this board was calling for the RJ maintenance to be taken over by American mechanics. Remember that Mr. Stewart? Yep that little grab for our jobs went over reaaallll well.

I have never seen anyone, not even the twu advocates not hope the best for you guys.

With all due respect, that is crap. Go put on an Eagle uniform and walk around a predominantly American area and see how that goes for you.

[post="186078"][/post]​

 

[Bob Owens]

[post="186117"][/post]​

Well Eagle often uses Hangar 10 at JFK. I've always made a point of going over and talking to them. As far as going across the concourse that goes both ways. We have always had mechanics come over from Eagle and to my knowledge they have not been treated any different than anyone else.

I do think that one of the possibilities is that sometime in the future we may see the company file for single carrier status. The pilots were pushing for it a while back and apparently you guys had language inserted into your contract. The point is are you happy with the TWU? Are you glad to see our wages brought down to yours? Do you want to see your career choice to remain in a downward spiral that is under the control of people who are not mechanics?

When are you guys starting your AMFA drive?

 

[will fix for food]

Well Eagle often uses Hangar 10 at JFK. I've always made a point of going over and talking to them. As far as going across the concourse that goes both ways. We have always had mechanics come over from Eagle and to my knowledge they have not been treated any different than anyone else.

In your experience Eagle people are treated great. In my experience Eagle people are not treated well. Maybe we have just had different experiences but if you talk to any Eagle person from any workgroup who has any time at the airline I bet you could find a good story. We'll leave it at that.

I do think that one of the possibilities is that sometime in the future we may see the company file for single carrier status. The pilots were pushing for it a while back and apparently you guys had language inserted into your contract.

I'm skeptical this will happen to say the least. There are good business reasons for it to happen but there are even better business reasons for it not to. Stranger things have happened though.

The point is are you happy with the TWU? Are you glad to see our wages brought down to yours? Do you want to see your career choice to remain in a downward spiral that is under the control of people who are not mechanics?

Am I happy with the TWU? Absolutely not. The TA we received was weak at best. How it got voted in is beyond me.

When are you guys starting your AMFA drive?

I have not heard of any plans for an organized drive at this time.

Now here is my personal opinion:

I have been following AMFA's performance at Eagle type airlines for a while by reading what I can find and talking to mechanics at ACA, etc. Their opinion,which is becoming my opinion, is that there is no difference. The same s--t goes on, the dues just go to a different place. Sorry. Don't get me wrong, I like the craft union
concept, but AMFA, in my opinion, hasn't produced any better results than any of the other unions at the "regional" airline level. Feel free to light me up and call me a cultist and all the rest of that crap. And before you think this is approval for the TWU CIO, it is not. The TWU is the epitome of laziness. I am convinced that the International will take the path of least resistance as long as dues are not involved.

[post="186178"][/post]​

 

[Bob Owens]

[post="186234"][/post]​

In your experience Eagle people are treated great.

Well I didnt say great, just no different than anyone else.

In my experience Eagle people are not treated well.

By Eagle or other workers at other companies?

Maybe we have just had different experiences but if you talk to any Eagle person from any workgroup who has any time at the airline I bet you could find a good story. We'll leave it at that.

Well I have run across people who left Eagle and stayed here.


I'm skeptical this will happen to say the least. There are good business reasons for it to happen but there are even better business reasons for it not to. Stranger things have happened though.

What are they, both pros and cons? Just curious.


Am I happy with the TWU? Absolutely not. The TA we received was weak at best. How it got voted in is beyond me.

When are you guys starting your AMFA drive?

I have not heard of any plans for an organized drive at this time.

Now here is my personal opinion:

I have been following AMFA's performance at Eagle type airlines for a while by reading what I can find and talking to mechanics at ACA, etc. Their opinion,which is becoming my opinion, is that there is no difference. The same s--t goes on, the dues just go to a different place. Sorry. Don't get me wrong, I like the craft union
concept, but AMFA, in my opinion, hasn't produced any better results than any of the other unions at the "regional" airline level. Feel free to light me up and call me a cultist and all the rest of that crap. And before you think this is approval for the TWU CIO, it is not. The TWU is the epitome of laziness. I am convinced that the International will take the path of least resistance as long as dues are not involved


No names. However have you ever made the effort to educate yourself on unionism? Are you aware that in order for a craft union to really be effective they have to represent the majority of the craft? (The same goes for industrial unions)That is what AMFA is working towards. Until they accomplish that goal they will be handicapped as far as their full potential. As far as an organized drive, unfortunately if you sit back and wait, it probably wont happen for a while, in the meantime years go by and conditions for our craft continue to deteriorate under the control of business unions like the TWU.

Did you read the post by TWU claiming that bigger companies have higher costs? Its clear that he was insinuating that because AA is bigger they cant afford to pay us as much as a smaller carrier, now what has the TWU told you guys at Eagle? My guess is the opposite, that because Eagle is smaller they cant affford to pay you what the bigger carriers get.

The TWU has mutated from being an "Industrial Union" into being a "business union". All unions need dues but its the objectives of what those dues are to be used for that differ. Business unions look at their members as a commodity, they dont really care about them, they just supply the dues that provide them lavish lifestyles. Business unions dont neccissarily focus on any type of worker, they will collect dues from anyone, as long as they can collect more than it costs to represent them. Since dues is what they are after anyway, there is no real "cause" other than collecting more dues. We see this with the TWU. Over the years the TWU has targeted growth in non-commercial transportation sectors. Local 514, the TWU/AA Tulsa Local even started branching out into the fishing reel manufacturing industry. Zebco was the company, and they were part of the Air Transport Division. How that ties into the airlines I dont know. However they lost all those members when the company decided to ship the work to China. In fact if you look at the TWU/ ATD you will see that the TWU has thrown in several groups of workers that do not fit into the airline industry at all. Many of these groups are not under the RLA. They put them into the ATD because they felt they needed to pump up the local delegates of locals that were more supportive of the International. Local 504 especially.

While the TWU branches out into other industries it does nothing to unify the labor movement within this industry. Instead, due to AFL-CIO affiliation they leave in place a fractured, divided structure so that many unions can get a piece of the Airline action. This structure was acceptable during the regulated era but has proven to be totally ineffective in the deregulated era. And they have no intentions on fixing it. I know I tried. In fact the International cited my writings urging the AFL-CIO unions to merge their ATDs into one union as dual unionism. Even though my writings were directed to Union officers. Even though I recieved a call from the AFL-CIO encouraging me to pursue this.

Obviously the International saw this as a threat to their hegemony. The drive to diversify membership also has a motive beyond dues. The more diverse the membership the more control and less accountability at the top. On a smaller scale we can look at the previously mentioned TWU Local 504.

Local 504 has a very diverse membership, both occupationally and geographically. Despite the fact that most of Local 504 members make just above minimum wage all the top officers of Local 504 are from Pan Am, in fact they are the same officers since Pan Am. Pan Am went out of business over 12 years ago! Its leaders drive Mercedes and Audis to work, while the members make around minimum wage. These officers have no job to return to should they get voted out of office. So as long as they "play ball" with the International, and the employers, they will have a job. The membership is so spread out, they could never organize a challenge to the current leaders. So the only people who can remove these guys is the International.

The International TWU is simply a larger version of Local 504, except that the only group that can remove the International is in fact-the International.

The fact is the TWU is a business union that is beyond repair. Its Industrial union past is just that-the past. The fact that it puts more and more effort into organizing non-transport related workers proves that its not an industrial union. The fact that it accepts having transport workers all split up between other unions is a business decision, not one driven by ideology. The airline industry is big enough to support an airline union, however its not big enough to support too many unions representing the same types of workers who represent the airline as a sideline. Twenty years of regression in wages and benifits is proof enough that the basic structure is totally flawed. Membership "participation" in a top down union like the TWU will have no effect. The best thing that we can do is try something else. Either try another union, or another profession. Which is the more logical choice for us?

AMFA is still in its formative, idealistic stages. They are concentrating on Aircraft mechanics, due to the NMB other groups are included, thats ok, it does not change the goals of the organization, it simply adds more members. Mechanics will still be the majority and we will all still be from the same industry. There is a common link betwen us and if they benifit from promoting the craft thats ok too. These other groups are an asset because they too perform essential functions.

AMFA is our only hope for real change.

 

[scab scraper]

hey nightwatch i like your "button"
as i read this post i noticed words describing amfa(PUKE) from people who are represented (?) by amfa(PUKE) check some of these out. i really feel for these.
"con-artists" humm heard that before. amfasux this one saw the light
amfa lied OMG!!!!!REALLY!!! boobyboy is gonna scald him.....in BLUE.
FRAUD (his caps not mine) my,my would you believe it?from a bunch of such high
integrity a&p's????...."i am sick of amfa's(PUKE) lies" Oh,Oh, this one will hear from...ta-da....amfaman!!!!!yea their PUKE GREEN wannabe......
one guy said this "AM-fuh"!!!! wonder what he meant by that?! O,just one of the few disgruntled....right boobyboy? yeah right.....get this one "they told us @ NW they won a MAJOR VICTORY in the FM1&2 cases" really? losing is so common with amfa(PUKE) that they think they won!!!! :unsure: i guess if thats what you like.LOSERS!! then stick to it......this guy said "i am sick of they're (amfa(PUKE)) telling us we have an "iron clad" contract on out sourceing when, in fact ALL our work is now over seas!!!!" just a few things i picked off your post mightwatch. i thought it was a good one & i wondered what "they" would reply & pretty much what i thought...yap/yap/blah/blah/yap/yap/blah/blah & most of it was in blue so you know who that was..right? & then & then we have..ta-da...amfa(PUKE)man.
well again nightwatch NICE avatar...i like it
TWU/AFL/CIO/ATD=UNION=SCABFREE

 

[Bob Owens]

hey nightwatch i like your "button"
as i read this post i noticed words describing amfa(PUKE) from people who are represented (?) by amfa(PUKE) check some of these out. i really feel for these.
"con-artists" humm heard that before. amfasux this one saw the light
amfa lied OMG!!!!!REALLY!!! boobyboy is gonna scald him.....in BLUE.
FRAUD (his caps not mine) my,my would you believe it?from a bunch of such high
integrity a&p's????...."i am sick of amfa's(PUKE) lies" Oh,Oh, this one will hear from...ta-da....amfaman!!!!!yea their PUKE GREEN wannabe......
one guy said this "AM-fuh"!!!! wonder what he meant by that?! O,just one of the few disgruntled....right boobyboy? yeah right.....get this one "they told us @ NW they won a MAJOR VICTORY in the FM1&2 cases" really? losing is so common with amfa(PUKE) that they think they won!!!! :unsure: i guess if thats what you like.LOSERS!! then stick to it......this guy said "i am sick of they're (amfa(PUKE)) telling us we have an "iron clad" contract on out sourceing when, in fact ALL our work is now over seas!!!!" just a few things i picked off your post mightwatch. i thought it was a good one & i wondered what "they" would reply & pretty much what i thought...yap/yap/blah/blah/yap/yap/blah/blah & most of it was in blue so you know who that was..right? & then & then we have..ta-da...amfa(PUKE)man.
well again nightwatch NICE avatar...i like it
TWU/AFL/CIO/ATD=UNION=SCABFREE

[post="187890"][/post]​

When ever I see one of Scab scraper posts it wipes out any doubt that the TWU is beyond repair. Just think, stay with the TWU and he is what you can expect for representation!

 

[Decision 2004]

When ever I see one of Scab scraper posts it wipes out any doubt that the TWU is beyond repair. Just think, stay with the TWU and he is what you can expect for representation!

[post="188038"][/post]​

What scares me is a guy with that mentality and obvious lack of education works on Aircraft Parts.

Or maybe not, he may be one of those TWU stooges that roams the base all day and never works on anything.

 

[scab scraper]

HAHAHA god one O SCABmaster dAAve. you are the peddlin' your bazooka butt all over the base passin out your amfa(PUKE)cards. i'm where i'm suspose to be
WORKING!!!!! hahahaha good one SCABmaster get this >>>>>>>>>>>>>
TWU/AFL/CIO/ATD=UNION=SCABFREE