Trouble in 777 Overhaul (China)

[chris perry]

Air France dropped Haeco for doing shotty maintenance,probably the only reason there is space for AA Aircraft.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-19/haeco-unit-confident-of-reassuring-air-france-on-lost-screws.html

 

[chris perry]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/25/haeco-forecast-idUSL3E8LP4BP20121025

Shortage of mechanics

 

[Frank Szabo]

http://www.reuters.c...E8LP4BP20121025

Shortage of mechanics

As if ...

They'll just bus in additional workforce from their rice paddies - no need to let training and skill get in the way of profit and AA's grand designs.

 

[Bob Owens]

As if ...

They'll just bus in additional workforce from their rice paddies - no need to let training and skill get in the way of profit and AA's grand designs.

If they could then why didnt they?

Chinese Aviation is growing fast, Haeco is probably facing the same problems in China that AAR is facing here.

They probably need the rice more than they need to work on AA's planes.

i was in China last Summer, with all the contruction going on, and all the machines used in contruction I suspect that people with mechanical abilities are treated better than HAECO wants to treat them.

 

[eolesen]

Still having trouble realizing that HAECO isn't located in China?

Despite the handover from the UK, there's still not free movement across the border, nor can mainland Chinese normally obtain work in HK without getting residency & a work visa...

 

[chris perry]

Might as well be China hop skip and a Jump away,also for the people that say outsourcing doesn't affect safety.Here is a little article on Quantas Rb211 engines failing because they have lost control of their overhaul. Closing the engine shops degraded safety period.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/11/24/matters-the-senate-committee-might-properly-consider-in-the-absence-of-alan-joyce/

 

[700UW]

Last time I checked Hong Kong is part of China and HAECO has a huge maintenance base in Hong Kong.

So they arent in China?

HAECO has, over the years, expanded beyond the boundaries of Hong Kong SAR into other cities in China with Taikoo (Xiamen) Aircraft Engineering Co. Ltd. (TAECO) at Xiamen, Fujian, and Taikoo (Shandong) Aircraft Engineering Co. Ltd. (STAECO) at Jinan, Shandong. Recently, a joint venture "Taikoo SIchuan Aircraft Engineering Services Co. Ltd." has been formed in Sichuan. It also operates maintenance facilities in Singapore - Singapore (HAECO) Pte. Ltd. (SHAECO), and Bahrain. In addition, HAECO has established joint ventures with key major Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) in pursuit of providing “Total Care” services to its customers.

 

[WorldTraveler]

E is correct that Hong Kong is NOT in China from the perspective of labor costs or access to China's hundreds of millions of workers. Hong Kong is a special administrative region of China but its economy is predominantly linked to the US dollar and HKG's GDP per citizen is just above the US in the list of nations. HKG has a highly developed western economy that happens to be located on the doorstep of China but with a very heavy door still separating most of China from HKG.
https://www.cia.gov/...ok/geos/hk.html

Understanding your competitors will go a very long way to helping figure out how to compete with them.

Thus, the question is where AA's aircraft will be sent... if it is to mainland China, then yes there are plenty of low cost workers. If it is to HKG which is where HAECO is based and has its largest operation, then the workers there are not necessarily low paid or untrained.

 

[Bob Owens]

Still having trouble realizing that HAECO isn't located in China?

Despite the handover from the UK, there's still not free movement across the border, nor can mainland Chinese normally obtain work in HK without getting residency & a work visa...

I know that if you are travelling to China you can move about the rest of the country on the one VISA, such as going from Shanghai to Bejing, but if you want to go to Hong Kong, you have to get a seperate Visa, but you get them both from the Chinese Embassy. So yes it is part of China, but there is restricted movement to Hong Kong. However if a Chinese National who was an aircraft mechanic wanted to go from Hong Kong to Beijing I believe he is free to do so. Dont know about the other way around though.

So Hong Kong is part of China. Always was, but it was occupied by the Brittish for 150 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong

 

[Bob Owens]

Understanding your competitors will go a very long way to helping figure out how to compete with them.

Thus, the question is where AA's aircraft will be sent... if it is to mainland China, then yes there are plenty of low cost workers. If it is to HKG which is where HAECO is based and has its largest operation, then the workers there are not necessarily low paid or untrained.

Yes and NO, China has a very fast growing Aviation industry, they too have a shortage of Aircraft mechanics and pilots.

 

[FWAAA]

This article was posted to show these are Union shops in China. The British own these facilities,they are also exploiting workers in China.

Fair enough. Of course there are independent labor unions in Hong Kong (which is a part of China). While mainland China permits "trade unions," they're more impotent than even the TWU, as they are controlled by the Communist Party.

To be clear, workers in Hong Kong can actually negotiate and strike if they want (like unionized workers here). Mainland Chinese enjoy none of those rights.

Air France dropped Haeco for doing shotty maintenance,probably the only reason there is space for AA Aircraft.
http://www.bloomberg...ost-screws.html

No, that's not accurate. Air France dropped Taikoo (Xiamen) Aircraft Engineering Co., of which HAECO owns 59%. TAECO is located in mainland China - Xiamen and elsewhere. Incidentally, TAECO provides line maintenance for AA's planes in PEK and PVG.

Air France firing TAECO is like a regional jet airline firing American Eagle's mechanics for some mistakes those guys made. Your statements equating HAECO and TAECO are like blaming AA mainline AMTS at TULE for the hypothetical American Eagle maintenance lapses.

Contrary to your supposition, AA is not sending its 777s to TAECO (mainland China) for overhaul - AA's planes will be sent to Hong Kong for overhaul by HAECO - the same company that has overhauled CO's 777s ever since CO acquired 777s.

http://www.reuters.c...E8LP4BP20121025

Shortage of mechanics

Finally, an article that is on-point and not completely irrelevant to AA's situation. All of the others you have previously posted have nothing to do with AA's 777s that will be overhauled in Hong Kong by HAECO. It appears that HAECO may need to increase pay and recruiting efforts if it wants to continue to grow.

I know that if you are travelling to China you can move about the rest of the country on the one VISA, such as going from Shanghai to Bejing, but if you want to go to Hong Kong, you have to get a seperate Visa, but you get them both from the Chinese Embassy. So yes it is part of China, but there is restricted movement to Hong Kong. However if a Chinese National who was an aircraft mechanic wanted to go from Hong Kong to Beijing I believe he is free to do so. Dont know about the other way around though.

US citizen visitors to Hong Kong need no visa for tourist stays of less than 90 days.

US citizen visitors to mainland China do need a visa, as you pointed out.

http://travel.state....s/cis_1136.html

There may be some complex immigration procedures by which Hong Kong firms may import workers from mainland China if there's a shortage, but unlike the offensive posts above, it's not as easy as rounding up some people from "the rice paddies."

So Hong Kong is part of China. Always was, but it was occupied by the Brittish for 150 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong

Yes, Hong Kong is controlled by China. But using China and Hong Kong interchangeably ignores the reality that Hong Kong and mainland China are not synonyms. Perhaps in the future they will be synonymous, but currently they are not.

 

[FWAAA]

Thus, the question is where AA's aircraft will be sent... if it is to mainland China, then yes there are plenty of low cost workers. If it is to HKG which is where HAECO is based and has its largest operation, then the workers there are not necessarily low paid or untrained.

AA said that it had contracted with HAECO (in HKG) for 777 overhauls.

While mainland China may be experiencing growth in its airline industry, I have to believe that a country with 1.2 to 1.5 billion people (depending on the source) will have plenty of warm bodies that can be trained in airplane maintenance.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I also believe that Bob underestimates the ability of these growing economies to develop first world maintenance facilties and training programs. Aviation is a global business and there isn't much ability for one country to develop standards that are inferior to what is accepted throughout the world; most aviation standards are established in the US - or perhaps jointly with Europe.

There may be poorly run companies in any country but they are poorly run even by their own national standards. Plane crashes leave just as many dead in China as they do in the US; all the MRO activity in China could go up in smoke when the first major crash is blamed on those MROs.
Just as in the US, the Chinese have plenty of reason to get maintenance right.

Thank you for confirming that HAECO in HKG will do AA's overhauls. There are obviously cost savings for AA in doing the move but HKG is a highly developed location where employees make western salaries and where there very much is an immigration barrier that will remain in place until HKGs Special Administrative Region status remains in place - 50 years after the handover from Britain.

 

[Bob Owens]

AA said that it had contracted with HAECO (in HKG) for 777 overhauls.

While mainland China may be experiencing growth in its airline industry, I have to believe that a country with 1.2 to 1.5 billion people (depending on the source) will have plenty of warm bodies that can be trained in airplane maintenance.

You would assume that a country with 300 million warm bodies would as well. But that doesnt seem to be the case is it, or are seats rolling around in the aisles, and flaps falling off airplanes acceptable?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I also believe that Bob underestimates the ability of these growing economies to develop first world maintenance facilties and training programs. Aviation is a global business and there isn't much ability for one country to develop standards that are inferior to what is accepted throughout the world; most aviation standards are established in the US - or perhaps jointly with Europe.

There may be poorly run companies in any country but they are poorly run even by their own national standards. Plane crashes leave just as many dead in China as they do in the US; all the MRO activity in China could go up in smoke when the first major crash is blamed on those MROs.
Just as in the US, the Chinese have plenty of reason to get maintenance right.

Thank you for confirming that HAECO in HKG will do AA's overhauls. There are obviously cost savings for AA in doing the move but HKG is a highly developed location where employees make western salaries and where there very much is an immigration barrier that will remain in place until HKGs Special Administrative Region status remains in place - 50 years after the handover from Britain.

AA claimed Seatgate was caused by soda and coffee in the tracks. The FAA found that students from A&P school were doing the work in Boston, but AA still claims AA mechanics were responsible. Are you sure MROs would be blamed if there were injuries caused by shoddy maint.? I'm not. Call me sceptical.