Union Representation?

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------- "And the beat goes on!" "And the beat goes on!"--------- All that seems to get done is talk! ------ Oh well, I'll just kick back in my hammock, strong between two coco nut trees, and watch this thing unfold!-------- Life is good, if your retired!!! B)

 

[whoop whoop]

It's rather hard for me to hold anyone in esteem that personally profits rather handsomely under the guise of "Saving the Craft". Nothing can be saved while on the street looking for a job.

Stupid decisions were made that cost many their jobs and livelihoods. As said by George Patton (paraphrased), "One doesn't win a war by dying for their country - a war is won by making the other SOB die for his country." The year and a half AMFA allowed NWA to get their ducks in a row before the so-called "strike" was near suicide to the Association and to a large degree, the AMT trade.

I hold no respect for stupid decisions such as these that cost American jobs and it's guaranteed I never will. Bring something to the table better than what we presently have and I'll be one of the first to sign a card.

Bottom line, this "my union is better than yours" argument makes as much sense as arguing Republicans vs: Democrats. Both are in business to get rich off the backs of believers. At the upper level, there's actually no difference at all between the the two, be it political parties or unions, and plenty of "issues" are thrown out for the rabble to argue over while the "ins" do what they damned well please with nobody watching.

It's funny. In your signature, you write ".... far better to die on your feet than live on your knees.", yet you blame the NWA AMFA for dying for their cause. And.................... who are we to criticize them, they VOTED to strike. I, on the other hand, honor what they did, unlike you. They voted to fight for the 53% that were going to get laid off, they voted to fight for the pay they fought so hard to get.
They fought for what they believed in. Unlike these industrial unions like the twu, iam, ibt that only care about dues and not the profession. As we have witnessed over the years through constant concessions and detriment to the AMT trade. They would rather have more of you for the dues than keep the profession worth staying in, as proof from your current TA. The AMT will never advance by leaving the fighting for someone else. Under AMFA, we fight for ourselves. Why don't you bring up how AMFA raised the bar for the profession in 2000 when they went from $27/hr to $37/hr? They were no good then either!
As for the structure, AMFA is completely opposite of what you are used to, they are not the same. The national officers are not in it for the money. Dell went for years with no money coming in. Why would a person do that, if not only for dedication and the love of his trade. I don't think you can say the same of the others.
So please, don't compare AMFA to these corrupt corporations calling themselves unions. Thank you.

 

[Bob Owens]

AMFA never was affiliated with anything except an old man that was dying to strike a major airlines.

Did you ever meet or talk to the man? I did, on several occasions, and you are way off base. In fact one of the valid criticisms that other unions had, was the position that he took as far as "interest based arbitration" instead of a strike. Delle was very much against strikes but it was obvious that NWA wasnt intetrested in making a deal.

 

[Joe Patroni]

<_< ------- "And the beat goes on!" "And the beat goes on!"--------- All that seems to get done is talk! ------ Oh well, I'll just kick back in my hammock, strong between two coco nut trees, and watch this thing unfold!-------- Life is good, if your retired!!! B)

You know, this is one of the reasons I, like you, voted with my feet.

 

[Boomer]

Did you ever meet or talk to the man? I did, on several occasions, and you are way off base. In fact one of the criticisms that other unions had, and I agreed with, was the position that he took as far as "interest based arbitration" instead of a strike. Delle was very much against strikes but it was obvious that NWA wasnt intetrested in making a deal.

I never met the man, but, I know and very much respect others with whom I work that do know him. Given my opinion of those men, I'll go out on what I see as a very short, stout, limb and say that every revolutionary sees more failures than success. I see the man as one that seeks a democratic Union organization to wholly organize and advance the Aircraft Mechanic as a profession recognized as are the Electricians, Plumbers, Millwrights, Machinists, Welders, Operating Engineers, ...etc.

Some time ago, I had an individual that continually required me to become involved in issues at work. After several such issues, I asked the individual if he really wanted to continue working at the job: he replied that he did in fact want to keep the job but that "events about which he had no control" kept happening to him .

My reply was to introduce him to the statistical concept of the standard deviation. If what was happening to the individual was actually the result of random events not influenced by individual behaviour: as many of the random events would fall in a negative outcome for the individual as fell in a positive outcome for the individual. If every "random event" resulted in an outcome that favored the individual, it was highly likely that the events were not random and/or were influenced by the individual.

Likewise my opinion regarding the ideal of an Aircraft Maintenance based union like AMFA and our experience with the TWU/AA embrace of "Interest Based Bargaining":
1) AMFA has negotiated good industry leading contracts within the industry while suffering a crushing defeat at NWA;
2) The TWU has continued to lead the entire airline organized labor industry into a downward spiral that has traditionally exceeded the industry average.
_____________________________________________________

See the link below with respect to the outcomes of entities engaged in Interest Based Bargaining.

LINK PROVIDED:
Canadian Based Study: Negotiations Journal Article on Interest Based Bargaining

"...Abstract This study seeks to identify what specific kinds of compromises result from IBB, or interest-based bargaining, and what differentiates agreements that are reached using this method from the ones that are negotiated through more traditional forms of collective bargaining. The authors compare the changes to collective agreements in 19 cases that used interest-based bargaining and the changes to agreements in 19 cases that used more traditional forms of negotiation. Their analysis reveals that clauses dealing with joint governance and organizational innovation underwent more changes when the parties adopted the IBB approach. In addition, IBB has given rise to more union concessions..."
___________________________________________________________________

 

[aapitbull]

Dell is as fine of a man as anyone could hope to meet, I have had the honor of introducing him on more than one occasion he is a gentleman and always preaches to take the high road even when he is unjustly attacked, I would always say when I introduced him “If you have never had the pleasure of meeting him count yourself lucky to be here today”

Anyone who believes that money was a motivating factor in Dells fight, simple does not know what he is talking about, he had a passion for his cause that went way beyond money to be frank I still don’t understand how he kept the fire burning that long God Bless you O.V. where ever you are!

 

[The Goose]

Did you ever meet or talk to the man? I did, on several occasions, and you are way off base. In fact one of the valid criticisms that other unions had, was the position that he took as far as "interest based arbitration" instead of a strike. Delle was very much against strikes but it was obvious that NWA wasnt interested in making a deal.

No Bob, never did meet or speak with him. I did read quite a bit about both he and his creation, however. Far too many unanswered questions remained.

Back to the start - something desparately needed to be done at American (nothing has changed). Along comes AMFA and, due to the no-raid agreements within the AFL-CIO affiliates, was the only girl at the party, so to speak, and due to its "some are more equal than others" policies re: all in AA's Title 1 grouping that included more than AMTs, seemed a somewhat ugly girl at that. Now, there is another since the Teamsters left the AFL-CIO (I'm not including the SEIU as most wouldn't care for maid and bellhop representation - we already have bus drivers) - they, however, don't seem to be returning calls people have made to them - I would take that as a "bugger off" statement.

I've been wrong many times before re: my opinions of people and their motivations - this would not be the first and certainly won't be the last.

 

[aapitbull]

No Bob, never did meet or speak with him. I did read quite a bit about both he and his creation, however. Far too many unanswered questions remained.

Back to the start - something desparately needed to be done at American (nothing has changed). Along comes AMFA and, due to the no-raid agreements within the AFL-CIO affiliates, was the only girl at the party, so to speak, and due to its "some are more equal than others" policies re: all in AA's Title 1 grouping that included more than AMTs, seemed a somewhat ugly girl at that. Now, there is another since the Teamsters left the AFL-CIO (I'm not including the SEIU as most wouldn't care for maid and bellhop representation - we already have bus drivers) - they, however, don't seem to be returning calls people have made to them - I would take that as a "bugger off" statement.

I've been wrong many times before re: my opinions of people and their motivations - this would not be the first and certainly won't be the last.

The Reamsters have made it clear many times they are not interested in raiding the TWU. They said as much a few years back in a open letter to Gary Yingist when he was in the ATD, as a matter of fact when the Reamsters were raiding AMFA at UA the TWU helped with people and money in the drive, so once again you have your 3 choices AMFA TWU OR INDEPENDENT, pick one and you will see how easy it is for someone to nit pick your choice.

 

[MCI transplant]

The Reamsters have made it clear many times they are not interested in raiding the TWU. They said as much a few years back in a open letter to Gary Yingist when he was in the ATD, as a matter of fact when the Reamsters were raiding AMFA at UA the TWU helped with people and money in the drive, so once again you have your 3 choices AMFA TWU OR INDEPENDENT, pick one and you will see how easy it is for someone to nit pick your choice.

<_< ----- What's to "nit pick", the reality of this situation is at this rate, in two contracts, two thirds of all AMT's will either be gone, or replaced with "B" wage scale mechanics! Whatever you want to call them! And the ones that are left, ages 49 and under, will be without a retirement, and everyone will be under "Obama Care" for health care, because it'll be cheaper for AA to pay the penalty than pay the premiums!

 

[FWAAA]

Concessions and B-scale are not foreign to UAW members these days:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jF7BKtnASmpRaPV00FqD2EjFij3wD9GDU8DO4

Winning back concessions won't be easy for UAW:

http://www.freep.com/article/20100618/COL06/6180471/1322/Winning-back-concessions-wont-be-easy-task-for-UAW

 

[TWU informer]

If these AFL-CIO Union's would just take as good of care of the union man (Dues Payer) as they do the Democratic Party Political Candidates while using money extorted from the working man we just might be better off.

The day these unions fell into the trap or sold out to the belief that funding politics will balance the power between the middle class and the rich was the day the direction of pay and benefits began a downward spiral.

AFL-CIO has been giving millions in stolen dues money to politics for years and yet the middle class still glides closer to the poor.
AFL-CIO has been giving millions in stolen dues money to politics for years and yet negotiations lead to worker concessions.

Next AFL-CIO will be funding and demanding immigration reform that will result in a larger work force willing to work for even less, and of course the AFL-CIO union will be right there with their hands out collecting 2 hours pay per month from them also.

Many like to claim independent non-affiliated unions are isolated from the rest of labor and therefore will fail, yet the AFL-CIO affilfiated unions are actually failing equal to or greater than the non-AFL-CIO affiliated unions.

The facts do not match the rhetoric when it comes to choosing between affilliated to non-affiliated union representation.

 

[TWU informer]

<_< ----- What's to "nit pick", the reality of this situation is at this rate, in two contracts, two thirds of all AMT's will either be gone, or replaced with "B" wage scale mechanics! Whatever you want to call them! And the ones that are left, ages 49 and under, will be without a retirement, and everyone will be under "Obama Care" for health care, because it'll be cheaper for AA to pay the penalty than pay the premiums!

Not sure where you have been but I am 50 years old with 27 years of seniority and hired in under the "B" Scale payrate way back in 1983. I would bet less than 10% of current AMT's hired before "b" scales were introduced to aviation.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

It's rather hard for me to hold anyone in esteem that personally profits rather handsomely under the guise of "Saving the Craft". Nothing can be saved while on the street looking for a job.

Stupid decisions were made that cost many their jobs and livelihoods. As said by George Patton (paraphrased), "One doesn't win a war by dying for their country - a war is won by making the other SOB die for his country." The year and a half AMFA allowed NWA to get their ducks in a row before the so-called "strike" was near suicide to the Association and to a large degree, the AMT trade.

I hold no respect for stupid decisions such as these that cost American jobs and it's guaranteed I never will. Bring something to the table better than what we presently have and I'll be one of the first to sign a card.

Bottom line, this "my union is better than yours" argument makes as much sense as arguing Republicans vs: Democrats. Both are in business to get rich off the backs of believers. At the upper level, there's actually no difference at all between the the two, be it political parties or unions, and plenty of "issues" are thrown out for the rabble to argue over while the "ins" do what they damned well please with nobody watching.

Goose, where did Delle profit "handsomely under the guise of "Saving the Craft"?". Perhaps those who personally profit handsomely are appointed officials who earn $120,000.00+ a year while those they represent take the hit in pay and benefits?

Stupid decisions? Are you talking about the RLA which we fall under which tips the scale of justice in favor of management? Perhaps the stupid decisions are those allowing management to drag their feet in negotiations for YEARS so they have time to recruit SCABS? Stupid decisions? How about the decisions of other UNIONS not helping fellow AMTs at AMFA when the time called for it?

Your insinuation that AMFA is a union that "is better than yours" is something the twu, iam and teamsters use when there is an AMFA drive. This is because when democratic craft unions for AMTs are compared to undemocratic industrial unions for AMTs the truth hurts. There is a difference because at the "upper levels" of AMFA, as well as at the lower levels, everyone is elected to office by the membership. Show me that with other unions.

 

[TWU informer]

It's rather hard for me to hold anyone in esteem that personally profits rather handsomely under the guise of "Saving the Craft". Nothing can be saved while on the street looking for a job.

Can you name one AFL-CIO Union representative who is not handsomely profiting under the guise of "Saving the Working Man" while the middle class slides continuosly closer to the poor?

 

[MCI transplant]

Not sure where you have been but I am 50 years old with 27 years of seniority and hired in under the "B" Scale payrate way back in 1983. I would bet less than 10% of current AMT's hired before "b" scales were introduced to aviation.

<_< ------ Sorry Informer, I do come from a "different" background. I'm going to be 68 years old, have a little over 40 years between TWA/AA, and worked 33years under IAM contracts! Been retired a little over a year and a half. Never worked one day for a "B" scale!--------- Luck of the drew no doubt!?