The bitter mouth surfaces.
United Mechanics file for Representation vote!
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TWU informer
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Actaully he is just dishonest about who he is, what he does for a living, and what his true intentions for being here are.
At the time there was a shortage of A&Ps out there so the answer is no.
Well you are leaving out the fact that these internal farmouts started happening nearly 20 years ago, long before the more recent wave of massive outsourcing and as I've indicated before since those other carriers didnt have 20 years to blend in a permanent two tier system like AA outsourcing was the only means of coming close to AAs TWU brokered lower labor costs. By undercutting every other union in the industry the TWU helped bring about the disaster that came down on airline workers across the industry.
Real unions use productivity gains-even those attainied through technology as a means to increase workers compensation. If its inevitable that technology will replace labor, and to a dgree it is, the union should fight to make sure that those who remain are making more money.
OP
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<_< ----- You have no idea of what I'm talking about do you? Or if you do, your ignoring what I'm really saying! What I said has nothing to do with seniority! And if your too dense to figure it out, that's just too bad!But they are under me. A big layoff and they go first. You just can't accept it.
MCI, he is too dense.
Hopeful
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AAFSC: What MCI is telling you is although you as an AAER will always have occupational seniority, you will always be "UNDER" them in terms of the type of people they are and how wonderful they are and what great workers they are...etc etc etc...
MCI should come to JFK and see how "wonderful" the native TWAers are here...
MCI should come to JFK and see how "wonderful" the native TWAers are here...
OP
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<_< ------- Listen Hopeful, I'm not about to get into an argument on exTWA vs. AA here! aa keeps sounding off about some issue told to him about some exTWAers at, where? ORD? Bragging about displacing nAAtive AAers! I could do the same about how exTWAers were treated at LAX! So what's the point? I'm not talking about groups of people here! I'm talking about individuals!
U
UAL_TECH
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Aafsc is a vindictive individual that will take delight in the misery of others as long as she/he/it deems it possible and is self gratifying, I’ve seen these creatures first hand and I assure you that there is no debate and/or reasoning that will change their pre conceived conclusion. I have witnessed UAL mechanics collectively sabotage their own union and take joy in their doing it (regardless of the ‘membership’ much less the member). These same knuckleheads propose the teamsters and there are many lemmings that are doing the bobble head dance.
If we were to speak of intelligent ‘Mechanics’ we might not want to speak of the United M&R.
JMHO,
B) UT
If we were to speak of intelligent ‘Mechanics’ we might not want to speak of the United M&R.
JMHO,
B) UT
Hopeful
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Understood.. But this argument never seems to cease...We either ignore it or add fuel to it.....
OP
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<_< ------I agree! Believe me! I'm trying! Too ignore it that is! But then some yahoo comes up with some off the wall remark! ------- and it's off to the races again! :down: :down:
After decades of AMFA heaping scorn on ramp personnel, what did you expect?
I am critical of all unions to one degree or another; AMFA lends itself to receiving more. Here are my views of various unions and their flaws/failures:
TWU: I have always regarded this organizations as docile. That is the impression I got back when I was at EAL; even though I knew nothing else about the TWU; I really didn't care, I was in the IAM. The EAL F/As were represented by the TWU. The original Pan Am mechanic related and ramp across the field was also represented by the TWU. I do in fact agree with most here about the fact that Jim Little was not elected by the membership; I do not ever recall voting for him. However, the TWU was at AA long before I was so I just deal with it. As Owens points out, there is really no viable alternative for fleet anyway. The fact is the TWU is a business that is interested in dues (revenue).
IAM: I was an IAM member at EAL. The strike at EAL was effective because of the membership; not because of the IAM top bosses. Bryan was an effective leader (although arrogant IMO) who did very well considering the very hostile Bush I administration. However, the IAM leadership above Bryan and upward sucked; they did not set up secondary pickets at all the other airlines and we received no help from other IAM airline employees. What really pisses me off is the fact that the IAM now represents the F/As at CO; as does ALPA with the pilots and IBT with AMTs. Yes, some of those at CO were scabs back in the 1980s and yet are now members in good standing with their respective unions. More business unionism; those who fought were cast aside. CO was very close to going out forever in their last bankruptcy, the unions should have mounted a MASSIVE campaign to push it over the edge and rid us of the original scab air once and for all.
APA: I am critical of their tactics. Earlier, I criticized their chart. As far as their demands on AA, that is their business. I was critical of their chart because, in my view, it insults the intelligence of their intended audience. If they are going to engage in a public campaign (as they obviously are with their ads and charts), the first rule is to not insult the intelligence of those to whose sympathies you seek. In their pay comparison chart, even the untrained eye could see that AA's two main competitors, UA and DL, were conspicuously absent and that APA was comparing it's pay mainly to cargo carriers. Also, the smallest analytical effort would reveal the truth regarding 767 and 777 pay between AA and CO pilots. What they should have done was to compare executive compensation in general using AA's senior management pay as reference to that of a wide spectrum of workers (including pilots) and highlight the massive percentage of increases for the executives compared to the decline or miniscule gains of everyone else. IMO, APA does a very poor job with it's PR campaign.
AMFA: I am very critical of AMFA for two reasons; their demonization of the unskilled and their poor performance. It is an undeniable fact that AMFA has demonized the ramp for decades. I heard it at EAL when they were trying to organize there. In their attempt to get in , they had to convince the AMTs that there was someone else responsible for their misery. Just as Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's post WWI misery, the radical muslims blame infidels for their countries' poor performance, and Castro and Chavez blame the Americans for their countries' poverty; AMFA blamed the ramp for the problems of the AMT.
I won't list all of AMFA's failures and short comings because it would too long and there isn't enough bandwidth; but all one has to do is look at NW, Alaska, and a few others to get the idea. I have read on other boards talk that AMFA will let the scabs at NW become "honorable" if they pay dues. If that is the truth, it a slap in the face to those who sacrificed and would be proof that AMFA is just a union business like all the others.
I was/am a good union member. I boycotted the appropriate products, buy/patronize union made goods/businesses and I do my best to avoid walmart; I only go if no one else has what I need. I even canceled a vacation for my union beliefs. In the early 1990s, I tried to fly to SYD when AA still flew there. I got as far as HNL but the HNL-SYD leg was booked for days. The non-rev list was very long and people were not getting on. UA, QF, NZ were all booked solid as well. One non-rev came back ecstatically exclaiming "CO has a lot of empty seats!!" As an ex-EA union employee, I was not about to set foot on a CO plane. So, I sacrificed my long awaited trip to Austrailia out of my union principles. Yet, I remember an AA AMFA supporter on this board being offended by something AA did with respect to passes. He said he flew Jetblue from JFK-FLL; he was criticized for patronizing a non-union airline that was lowering the wages. I suggested a schedule where he could fly High paying and AMFA represented SW out of ISP to FLL with a stop in TPA; he declined. He wasn't obviously willing to make a small sacrifice to help the "union cause".
In summary, ALL unions are nothing more than businesses. Much like the airline executives, top union official never suffer. Whether it's Little, Buffenbarger, , or Delle-Femine it makes no difference; they all covet their positions because it provides them access to the horn of plenty.
I was in a hurry the other day when I read your post and typed in a quick reply. Consider this a revision of my reply:
There is nothing lower than a group people (TWAers) whose careers were saved from certain extinction by a much better financially endowed group (NAAtives) who then demands everything from that group (NAAtives) via super seniority. The employees of the failed entity should not reap a windfall at the total expense of the employees at the successful entity.
You have again succeeded in turning another thread into the AA/TWA debate.
Yes, I take great delight in the misery of those who profane the character of another based soley on how the earn an honest living; especially when they brought it upon themselves. I do have genuine sympathy for those who did not: cleaners, custodians, auto and facility maintenance, and even A&Ps who refused to let AMFA instill hatrid in them; I hope they find something much better than NW.
Look, AMFA's selling points for organizing are as follows:
1. More power at the local level.
2. No political involvement.
3. Belief in craft unionism only.
4. Accountability of officers (why are all the same people still there after all the failures?)
5. Profaning other work groups and blaming them for A&P problems.
If AMFA would have stopped at #4, I would have had no problem with them and I would be less critical of them.
