USAPA/ALPA US Pilot Labor Thread 5/10-5/17

[Pi brat]

Yes, by no fault of their own in your eyes, no doubt. Interesting how the East is always the victim and never has any responsibility in anything that happens to them.

Jetz, let me ask you this. Let's say all the charges against the PHL were valid and they deserved to be put into trusteeship. Don't you think it was still a stupid move? They took away the elected leaders of our biggest base while an election was underway. It was done just before MEC elections, giving the CLT reps complete control. It played right into USAPA's hand, and made the PHL reps martyrs.

Right after the PHL guys were dumped, Jack S. said that soon he would ask all reps and volunteers to pledge their support to ALPA. I sent him an email and asked why soon, how about right now, as there were many USAPA supporters in ALPA roles. What was good for PHL was good for all of us. No answer.

I told John Prater it was stupid move. He didn't listen to me either.

At the end I came to believe that USAPA was the wrong way to go, but you have to admit that ALPA made every wrong move they could and helped prove USAPA's case.

 

[prechilill]

At the end I came to believe that USAPA was the wrong way to go, but you have to admit that ALPA made every wrong move they could and helped prove USAPA's case.

Regardless of what ALPA did or did not do, USAPs had their minds made up. You guys are extremely angry and bitter, you found a convenient target with ALPA. It's kind of like the spoiled teenager blaming their tyrannical parents (who have rules to live by) for all the troubles and setbacks in their horrible, suburban existence...

 

[sharktooth]

Yes, by no fault of their own in your eyes, no doubt. Interesting how the East is always the victim and never has any responsibility in anything that happens to them.

Not sure you understand what happened, based on your response.

I was simply pointing out the extreme hypocrisy in dealing with councils within the East side of US by National. If you choose to make it a East/West thing please try a transition of some kind so I can understand what you are talking about.

I took a loyalty oath to protect and defend the Constitution, never a political party, organization or "association". I expect those representing me to do nothing less because that is where one finds integrity and patriotism and not in any darn fool who allows himself to be hijacked by, inevitably, any tom, dick and harry organization with their own agenda.

I think ALPA as an entity forgot who the clients were and who provides service to whom. The franchise is broken.

 

[Pi brat]

Regardless of what ALPA did or did not do, USAPs had their minds made up. You guys are extremely angry and bitter, you found a convenient target with ALPA. It's kind of like the spoiled teenager blaming their tyrannical parents (who have rules to live by) for all the troubles and setbacks in their horrible, suburban existence...

Give me a break. You post sounds exactly like the west pilots to me. On 4/17/2008 you guys found out what the east pilots felt like on 5/3/2007, welcome to the bitter pilots club. It was a legal election.

As I said, and you conveniently ignored, I didn't have my mind made up. I looked at all the facts and thought that we should stay in ALPA and fight the Nic award that way. Most of the east pilots felt differently, and for once in my life I hope I'm wrong. I have joined USAPA, sent in DCO, and will support them and what is best for ALL US pilots.

You guys are pinning your hopes on UA coming in and saving the day. I believe that is a mistake, but hey, nobody has listened to me yet.

 

[sharktooth]

Regardless of what ALPA did or did not do, USAPs had their minds made up. You guys are extremely angry and bitter, you found a convenient target with ALPA.

Glad you know all about the East. and, the East did not "find" a convenient target, ALPA painted that bulls-eye on their own backs and then waved the red flag. I almost think the "nic" put ALPA between a rock and a hard place and ALPA may have, um, facilitated USAPA, knowing this was their only way out.

It's kind of like the spoiled teenager blaming their tyrannical parents (who have rules to live by) for all the troubles and setbacks in their horrible, suburban existence...

If that is the way you truly think with a "teenager", you will have a very interesting and expensive next few years. (experience)

and, interesting how you just transferred the blame for "tyrannical parents" to "rules to live by", as if the parents are too stupid to set and live by their own rules and must depend on the "state" to set rules. (experience may help you understand the difference between authority and responsibility - no wonder a "teenager" might rebel, seeing their parents use authority but refusing to take responsibility for the inevitable consequences of using that authority) Conversely, I wonder how people with your attitude do in a cockpit, when a company tries to force them to accept responsibility without authority, and they have no idea the difference.

May I humbly suggest that time may cure your inexperience. 🙂

 

[prechilill]

Give me a break. You post sounds exactly like the west pilots to me. On 4/17/2008 you guys found out what the east pilots felt like on 5/3/2007, welcome to the bitter pilots club. It was a legal election.

It was a legal election, no question about that and none of us out west are arguing that it wasn't. We are just dumbfounded at the continued mistakes your pilot group makes. I think what 4/17/08 showed not just to the America West pilots but to the piloting profession as a whole was how emotional and dysfunctional you guys are in your thinking. Everything ALPA brought to you was from your own pilots, and some of these same pilots voted for and are main particpants in USAPA (based upon your own statements).
Whether UAL merges with US or not will not affect the Nicolau list nor the long term prospects of your emotional union experiment. The unobtainable promises of USAPA will take care of that by itself. Unfortunately, many of the east pilots are hedging their careers on a bet that won't pay off. Because regardless of what the union is called, it is the constituents who determine the outcome of events. Collectively, you guys are a catastrophe to yourselves.

 

[BottomFeeder]

Regardless of what ALPA did or did not do, USAPs had their minds made up. You guys are extremely angry and bitter, you found a convenient target with ALPA. It's kind of like the spoiled teenager blaming their tyrannical parents (who have rules to live by) for all the troubles and setbacks in their horrible, suburban existence...

It is you who does not understand the ALPA failures. They failed to be a union and became a service provider.

Lets call them
ALPA Expensive Services LTD.
ALPA National Retirement Home
( I want to be a Rock Star or ALPA Executive)
ALPA Corporation Land of Lawyers

My personal fav
ALPA International Division of Neutering

 

[hp_fa]

At the end I came to believe that USAPA was the wrong way to go, but you have to admit that ALPA made every wrong move they could and helped prove USAPA's case.

While the question was not addressed to me, I would agree with PI Brat. At a minimum, the situation was poorly handled even if ALPA had a fiduciary responsiblity that needed to be acted upon.

 

[commuter]

“Why the hysterical effort to convince the America West pilots that UAL is a bad thing for them?â€

Hysterical? I’ve not heard one East pilot jump on the UAL/US merger bandwagon. On the contrary, the West pilots are the group who seems to be so excited. If you question that, just look at the AWAPPA website. The east pilots have been through it twice before so I wouldn’t expect much of a response, more of a here we go again response.


“UAL pilots will clearly dictate the terms of the labor integration to Parker and who gets cut.â€

How did you arrive at that conclusion? Do you think the TWA ALPA pilots would agree with you? No one knows the final seniority integration results of any merger. What we do know about a assumed US/UAL merger is that it would be governed by Allegheny Mohawk and federal law and that is all we know.

“UAL will surely mean the immediate return of ALPA to both properties.â€

Perhaps a merged UAL/US pilot group will decide on ALPA for representation, possibly not. Who cares? I will add, however, it’s clear you don’t know many UAL pilots. This may come as a surprise to you, but the UAL pilots are not that happy with ALPA either and there’s been a move over there for some time to dump ALPA.

“With the East basically defacating in Herndon's livingroom after having been totally placated by ALPA, do you guys really believe that you haven't totally screwed yourselves at this point? Do you really believe you will have any credibility once you are back in ALPA?â€

Let’s think about this – UAL and US merge, as does DAL and NWA. Let’s assume both newly merged pilot groups choose ALPA for representation. Now who do you think will be running ALPA at that point? Do you really believe ALPA will treat either of those two pilot groups badly? On the contrary, those two pilots will control ALPA.

“Do you realize that you are facing a total acceptance of Nicolau, with the East absorbing a sizable portion of the synergies in order to placate UAL ALPA?â€

Wrong again. Nicolau died when ALPA was voted off the property. It was an ALPA document that was never implemented, it is gone permanently. What will now occur is the union representing the US Airways pilots will implement a seniority agreement and that will be set in stone per the Railway Labor Act. That’s how it works.

Assuming a merger with UAL, the US east and west pilots will need to have implemented their own combined seniority list prior to even sitting down with the UAL pilots to begin discussions on combining a seniority list. Further, any UAL/US seniority integration will fall under federal law and Allegehny Mohawk. Sometime after the UAL and US pilots were to arrive at a combined contract and seniority integration, then and only then will they decide on which union will represent both pilot groups as one. And yes, ALPA will once again be kissing tails to win the vote, there will certainly be no screwing of any group.

You’re talking out your tail in this entire post…………it’s very transparent that you have no idea what you speak of and your intention is simply to incite discord. <_<

Have a good day.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Uh oh. You tried to introduce logic to this thread. Expect to suffer the wrath of the westies!

 

[700UW]

Commuter,

Changing unions does not change a binding arbitration ruling nor a CBA.

 

[luvn737s]

He said it did, so listen to him. If an east pilot says something it's not to be challenged. oops, the gUStAPA is knocking at my door. I'd better go.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Jetz, let me ask you this. Let's say all the charges against the PHL were valid and they deserved to be put into trusteeship. Don't you think it was still a stupid move? They took away the elected leaders of our biggest base while an election was underway. It was done just before MEC elections, giving the CLT reps complete control. It played right into USAPA's hand, and made the PHL reps martyrs.

Right after the PHL guys were dumped, Jack S. said that soon he would ask all reps and volunteers to pledge their support to ALPA. I sent him an email and asked why soon, how about right now, as there were many USAPA supporters in ALPA roles. What was good for PHL was good for all of us. No answer.

I told John Prater it was stupid move. He didn't listen to me either.

At the end I came to believe that USAPA was the wrong way to go, but you have to admit that ALPA made every wrong move they could and helped prove USAPA's case.

This particular west pilot agrees with everything you just wrote. I hate to say it, because I'm along for the ride in a way I'd rather not be, but ALPA did not deserve to keep this pilot group. Under the "leadership" of John Prater and his willing accomplices on the EC really, really, screwed up.

Regarding the Philly trusteeship in particular, when it was done I thought it was the wrong thing at the wrong time. It made martyrs of the reps and I think showed the east pilots what could potentially lie ahead if they had stayed ALPA, eg. the heavy hand replacing all the committees and so forth.

History will not be kind to JHP.

 

[767jetz]

Jetz, let me ask you this. Let's say all the charges against the PHL were valid and they deserved to be put into trusteeship. Don't you think it was still a stupid move? They took away the elected leaders of our biggest base while an election was underway. It was done just before MEC elections, giving the CLT reps complete control. It played right into USAPA's hand, and made the PHL reps martyrs.

Right after the PHL guys were dumped, Jack S. said that soon he would ask all reps and volunteers to pledge their support to ALPA. I sent him an email and asked why soon, how about right now, as there were many USAPA supporters in ALPA roles. What was good for PHL was good for all of us. No answer.

I told John Prater it was stupid move. He didn't listen to me either.

At the end I came to believe that USAPA was the wrong way to go, but you have to admit that ALPA made every wrong move they could and helped prove USAPA's case.

I think the first mistake ALPA made was trying to placate the East with all the maneuvering and talk of trying to "find a solution." The best thing they could have done was defend the award from day one. They also should have had a joint contract lined up before arbitrating the seniority list. That way, as soon as the award came out the new contract and list would have gone into effect.

So yes, I think ALPA made mistakes in the way they handled it, IMO. As for receivership, once they found themselves in that position, regardless of how they got there, I think it was the right thing to do, but not necessarily the most strategic thing to do. I'm not convinced that that single event swayed the election. At that point I don't think there were enough "fence sitters" to change the outcome. It was going to be close regardless, and let's face it, the West was facing unfavorable odds due to the size of the memberships on each side.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Prater let his bias show from day one, and it was all down hill from there for ALPA.