USAPA/ALPA US Pilot Labor Thread 5/10-5/17

[767jetz]

it’s clear you don’t know many UAL pilots. This may come as a surprise to you, but the UAL pilots are not that happy with ALPA either and there’s been a move over there for some time to dump ALPA.

Where do you get all this incorrect information. You are seriously misinformed. The UPA movement at UA died last year. They completely closed up shop due to a serious lack of support. The UPA movement was started by a handful of 1986-ish hired captains based in DCA who were particularly bitter about the pension cancellation and the way the UAL MEC decided to distribute the convertible note ALPA received on bankruptcy exit. We are talking about MAYBE a few hundred piltos out of 8000. Your hope that this will mean USAPA will have allies to vote ALPA off UA's property is misguided.

Assuming a merger with UAL, the US east and west pilots will need to have implemented their own combined seniority list prior to even sitting down with the UAL pilots to begin discussions on combining a seniority list. Further, any UAL/US seniority integration will fall under federal law and Allegehny Mohawk. Sometime after the UAL and US pilots were to arrive at a combined contract and seniority integration, then and only then will they decide on which union will represent both pilot groups as one. And yes, ALPA will once again be kissing tails to win the vote, there will certainly be no screwing of any group.

This is also factually incorrect. ALPA will be voted in first. Once that happens, the new law will not apply because it does not supersede ALPA merger policy when all pilots are represented by one union. Even if there is an integration before ALPA represents everyone, the new law provides for the same process of BINDING arbitration, and as has been pointed out time and time again to the deaf ears of those of you who do not like to hear anything that contradicts your view of how things "should be," DOH has rarely been applied to arbitrations since A-M.

You’re talking out your tail in this entire post…………it’s very transparent that you have no idea what you speak of
Have a good day.

Ummm... Pot, meet kettle. Perhaps you should look in the mirror.

 

[givenup]

This is also factually incorrect. ALPA will be voted in first. Once that happens, the new law will not apply because it does not supersede ALPA merger policy when all pilots are represented by one union.

The sen. list must be settled before any vote for one union to represent under the new law. It is up to the two unions to do this.

 

[prechilill]

The sen. list must be settled before any vote for one union to represent under the new law. It is up to the two unions to do this.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is already one seniority for USAirways pilots, a list sanctioned under the TA agreed to by all parties concerned and accepted by the company. As Colonel Trautman would say "It's over, Johnnie".

 

[Flyz4food]

This is also factually incorrect. ALPA will be voted in first. Once that happens, the new law will not apply because it does not supersede ALPA merger policy when all pilots are represented by one union.

The sen. list must be settled before any vote for one union to represent under the new law. It is up to the two unions to do this.

So if the seniority must be settled before a change in the CBA, how did we end up being usurped?

 

[sharktooth]

This is also factually incorrect. ALPA will be voted in first. Once that happens, the new law will not apply because it does not supersede ALPA merger policy when all pilots are represented by one union.

The sen. list must be settled before any vote for one union to represent under the new law. It is up to the two unions to do this.

I think, technically, when a merged entity attains "single carrier status", then a vote for a union may occur.

 

[pilot]

All opinions, not facts. A judge is going to end up deciding what seniority list is the correct list.

Had the AWA pilots agreed to mitigate the Nic list we would still be ALPA. Oooo, Oooo it's binding. It's ours. You agreed. Can't change it. Won't change it. ALPA knew it was a serious problem or they wouldn't have tried to get it mitigated.

Well, we agreed to binding arbitration, AWA wouldn't budge because it was "binding", and now we have USAPA. For the record, my DC plan was negotiated under "binding" arbitration. There's plenty of fault to go around here. But the blame, plainly, is with an organization whose merger policy was obtuse and full of holes which was the last straw for the East guys. An organization that represents individuals and not a profession. Enough is enough.

It is entertaining though reading all the experts here. The only thing for sure is that no one knows how this is going to turn out. But it ain't gonna be pretty. One way or the other.

But the West guys really should try to figure out what a scab is.

 

[Flyz4food]

All opinions, not facts. A judge is going to end up deciding what seniority list is the correct list.

Had the AWA pilots agreed to mitigate the Nic list we would still be ALPA. Oooo, Oooo it's binding. It's ours. You agreed. Can't change it. Won't change it. ALPA knew it was a serious problem or they wouldn't have tried to get it mitigated.

Well, we agreed to binding arbitration, AWA wouldn't budge because it was "binding", and now we have USAPA. For the record, my DC plan was negotiated under "binding" arbitration. There's plenty of fault to go around here. But the blame, plainly, is with an organization whose merger policy was obtuse and full of holes which was the last straw for the East guys.

It is entertaining though reading all the experts here. The only thing for sure is that no one knows how this is going to turn out. But it ain't gonna be pretty. One way or the other.

Please explain why there was a need to "budge" after a binding decision. I as well as many others figure that once a binding decision is rendered, it is BINDING. The merger policy was in place for many years. It was only after you, USAirways, were the ones who felt slighted that it became an issue. Why did you wait all these years to voice your opinion? Where was you voice when the policy changed. I think it had a lot to do with, it doesn't effect me, why should do anything. We are Airways.

 

[prechilill]

All opinions, not facts. A judge is going to end up deciding what seniority list is the correct list.

Had the AWA pilots agreed to mitigate the Nic list we would still be ALPA. Oooo, Oooo it's binding. It's ours. You agreed. Can't change it. Won't change it. ALPA knew it was a serious problem or they wouldn't have tried to get it mitigated.

Well, we agreed to binding arbitration, AWA wouldn't budge because it was "binding", and now we have USAPA. For the record, my DC plan was negotiated under "binding" arbitration. There's plenty of fault to go around here. But the blame, plainly, is with an organization whose merger policy was obtuse and full of holes which was the last straw for the East guys.

It is entertaining though reading all the experts here. The only thing for sure is that no one knows how this is going to turn out. But it ain't gonna be pretty. One way or the other.

But wait- I thought USAPA was not about the Nic... That, that it was much more than that and um we westies just can't understand that everything in life is ALPA's fault

Ah, yeah. Right. You guys talk out of both sides of your mouth more than anyone in this profession. You can't even get your stories straight regarding USAPA.

So, if we agreed to a list that you wanted, we wouldn't have USAPA. Well heck, how about if we shove a seniority list down your throat because we don't have to agree to anything now... Same logic put right back at you bud. Get the point? Probably not, because you and your bitter crowd are wrapped in your own misery to see anything else. One day you will understand that your failure to respect the west pilot group and negotiate in good faith got you to where you are. That is why the west is delighted as to the outcome of events- Nicolau is a story of arrogance and greed getting put in its place.

 

[commuter]

767jetz,


ALPA will be voted in first. Once that happens, the new law will not apply because it does not supersede ALPA merger policy when all pilots are represented by one union. Even if there is an integration before ALPA represents everyone, the new law provides for the same process of BINDING arbitration, and as has been pointed out time and time again to the deaf ears of those of you who do not like to hear anything that contradicts your view of how things "should be," DOH has rarely been applied to arbitrations since A-M.


Common sense should tell you your assumption is incorrect. How would you protect your members in integrating a new CBA and seniority integration? The most recent case of two separate unions merging into one carrier is AA. ALPA represented the TWA pilots up until the seniority list was integrated. They got screwed and what resulted was the McCaskill bill directing for AM integration.

I've read the AWAPPA update that claims a seniority integration will occur after ALPA would be selected for representation; you're being mislead 767. I would suggest pursuing another legal opinion, especially since your AWAPPA attorney, Jeff Freund, is planning on representing the UAL pilots if a merger does come to fruition with US. 767jetz, your information is bad, nothing more.

I don't expect you to take what I state as fact, but I would suggest you review some history on labor integration, you will see the representation election comes at the end of the process, not before. Even under ALPA, the east and west were separate and would have remained so until we voted on a CBA that included a integrated seniority list. Let me add, that is also why the NIC award is DOA, it was never voted on and/or implemented.

So you may ask what happened in the US Airways case, how did they vote on selecting a new union without a seniority integration? Simply, they were both represented by the same union and voted for decertification; therein lies the difference.

Thanks for the response, 767.

 

[commuter]

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is already one seniority for USAirways pilots, a list sanctioned under the TA agreed to by all parties concerned and accepted by the company. As Colonel Trautman would say "It's over, Johnnie".

Ok, I will correct you. 🙄 Let me ask you prechilill, are you operating under an integrated seniority list? If not, why not? I bet you know the answer........

 

[prechilill]

Ok, I will correct you. 🙄 Let me ask you prechilill, are you operating under an integrated seniority list? If not, why not? I bet you know the answer........

nope. No integrated list. It is sitting on Parker's desk waiting. Waiting for the day we sign a joint CBA as per the transition agreement. So here is a question for you: do you think we are operating under the transition agreement agreed to by the AWA MEC, AAA MEC and Parker?

 

[commuter]

nope. No integrated list. It is sitting on Parker's desk waiting. Waiting for the day we sign a joint CBA as per the transition agreement. So here is a question for you: do you think we are operating under the transition agreement agreed to by the AWA MEC, AAA MEC and Parker?

Absolutely you are operating under a transition agreement. But that is where it ends. Though I have no crystal ball, I would imagine you will see a seniority list sanctioned by your Association delivered to the company in the not so distant future. I would presume that is on the top of their list. Following that, I would imagine negotiations for a joint contract will begin where ALPA left off. Just my opinion.........

 

[prechilill]

Absolutely you are operating under a transition agreement. But that is where it ends. Though I have no crystal ball, I would imagine you will see a seniority list sanctioned by your Association delivered to the company in the not so distant future. I would presume that is on the top of their list. Following that, I would imagine negotiations for a joint contract will begin where ALPA left off. Just my opinion.........

Ok. So what happened to the negotiation between the two pilot groups? I guess you think it just sort of disappears? Nicolau and binding arbitration just vanishes like it never existed? Hmmm. Interesting world you live in.

 

[EastUS]

Nicolau is a story of arrogance and greed getting put in its place.

Well..it certainly is thus far,🙄 and is properly exemplified by your famous "Ho Ho Ho!..St Nic is coming to town!"..or perhaps better yet by your comrade Leonidas "reasonably" noting "I want the captain seat and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!"

As for the continuous-looped ranting, implying emotional overload rather than reason? 'Tis worthy of little comment other than: "Methinks the Lady doth protesteth too much" Here's but the most recent..without seeking additonal and complete overkill, by any usage of PHX Roadshow references:

You have the floor prechilill:'

"Have to say something, don't you, no matter how distorted it comes out."

"I think what 4/17/08 showed not just to the America West pilots but to the piloting profession as a whole was how emotional and dysfunctional you guys are in your thinking.
Whether UAL merges with US or not will not affect the Nicolau list nor the long term prospects of your emotional union experiment."

"You guys are extremely angry and bitter, you found a convenient target with ALPA. It's kind of like the spoiled teenager blaming their tyrannical parents (who have rules to live by) for all the troubles and setbacks in their horrible, suburban existence... "

Yep "It's kind of like the spoiled teenager" as demonstrated 🙄

No matter really..as all the ranting in the world changes nothing of our collective circumstances, but rather, merely serves to add some color to discussions. At least things aren't boring at present It's interesting to see differing takes on what's "Definately/for-sure-this-time/certainly gonna' happen...escpecially since all any of us can really do is take our best guess, and do what we can.

"May you live in interesting times"

 

[prechilill]

Thank you for the flattering post, East. I can't remember half the things I post but if it is nice to know you double as a librarian. Times are indeed interesting as this industry is changing by the hour.