USAPA/ALPA US Pilot Labor Thread 5/10-5/17

[EastUS]

Thank you for the flattering post, East. I can't remember half the things I post but if it is nice to know you double as a librarian. Times are indeed interesting as this industry is changing by the hour.

Aww..credit where due. Few could ever forget "Ho Ho Ho!..St Nic is coming to town!".. 🙄

"I can't remember half the things I post". Perhaps some additonal efforts at cognitive focus would serve well therein........

Have fun/Be safe

 

[commuter]

Ok. So what happened to the negotiation between the two pilot groups? I guess you think it just sort of disappears? Nicolau and binding arbitration just vanishes like it never existed? Hmmm. Interesting world you live in.

What happened to the two pilot groups? There is no more "two pilot groups." They are now one. The Nicolau award was part of ALPA, associated with a joint contract. Both are now part of history - gone.

I feel like I am talking to the wall here, prechilill, no disrespect. Maybe it's me...... Do you not see these differences? Does what has occurred not seem evident?

At any rate, had ALPA won the toss, no doubt things would have changed quickly in regards to the award. As went ALPA, so too does the ALPA sanctioned seniority award. That was ALPA merger policy that fell short of being implemented. What you have today is USAPA merger policy. I don't think I can make it any clearer.......... <_<

 

[prechilill]

What happened to the two pilot groups? There is no more "two pilot groups." They are now one. The Nicolau award was part of ALPA, associated with a joint contract. Both are now part of history - gone.

I feel like I am talking to the wall here, prechilill, no disrespect. Maybe it's me...... Do you not see these differences? Does what has occurred not seem evident?

At any rate, had ALPA won the toss, no doubt things would have changed quickly in regards to the award. As went ALPA, so too does the ALPA sanctioned seniority award. That was ALPA merger policy that fell short of being implemented. What you have today is USAPA merger policy. I don't think I can make it any clearer.......... <_<

So you think that the USAPA vote also waved a magic wand and *POOF* Nicolau no longer exists. Well, tell me what other parts of the TA also disappeared since all parts of the TA involved both pilot groups, ALPA and the company.
I guess what many of us outside of your group can't figure out is your logic because all agreements in the past are inherited by USAPA- Bradford admitted to it, Parker stands by it and the law says it.

 

[hp_fa]

Had the AWA pilots agreed to mitigate the Nic list we would still be ALPA. Oooo, Oooo it's binding. It's ours. You agreed. Can't change it. Won't change it. ALPA knew it was a serious problem or they wouldn't have tried to get it mitigated.

You mean all the folks who were saying that they were forming USAPA because of ALPA costs were just blowing smoke up a bodily oriface?

 

[767jetz]

Common sense should tell you your assumption is incorrect. How would you protect your members in integrating a new CBA and seniority integration? The most recent case of two separate unions merging into one carrier is AA. ALPA represented the TWA pilots up until the seniority list was integrated. They got screwed and what resulted was the McCaskill bill directing for AM integration.

Good Lord! You are so far off base.

First of all, I am former TWA. I left years before they were absorbed by AA. However many of my closest friends did not. TWA ALPA signed a document giving up their rights to ANY seniority integration and agreed to submit to the will of APA as part of the preconditions of the transaction. Get it? They voluntarily gave up their rights in order to protect SOME jobs (those who were slotted in) and obtaining recall rights to AA for the rest, as opposed to facing liquidation and the unemployment line for everyone. It was far from being a merger. AA said here are our terms, take them or leave them. TWA and ALPA agreed knowing there was no alternative.

IF UA and US merge, as soon as there is a single carrier status, the pilots will shortly thereafter be represented by ALPA. This will all occur long before a seniority integration occurs. The legal and accepted list that has already been presented to your company, including the Nicolau award will be the basis for the snapshot, and ALPA merger policy will commence thereafter. This all assumes that there is no prenuptial agreement between the two parties. A prenuptial is a definite possibility considering Parker's admission that he would do things differently in the next merger and the reality of the overwhelming majority of UA pilots by a 3 to 1 margin. He is quite aware of what labor unrest means, and is equally aware how much worse it would be if over 3/4 of the resulting airline's pilots declare war on him.

But if you want to believe otherwise in order to sleep at night, that's your prerogative.

 

[767jetz]

At any rate, had ALPA won the toss, no doubt things would have changed quickly in regards to the award. As went ALPA, so too does the ALPA sanctioned seniority award. That was ALPA merger policy that fell short of being implemented. What you have today is USAPA merger policy. I don't think I can make it any clearer.......... <_<

You really should go back to the minor leagues, my friend.

The Nicolau award is a legal part of history. It can not be erased retroactively just by changing representation. USAPA inherits it along with everything else. USAPA, for the time being, may be able to dictate new merger rules for future mergers, assuming they last into another merger. (Which currently seems highly unlikely.) But they can not undo something that was done legally by their predecessors. That's simply not the way the law works in this country. Their only hope would be to prove that it was not done legally, and I believe this notion was already dismissed even by your own legal council. Your own union has even admitted that the only way around the Nicolau award is to negotiate a new list in the context of a new contract. But with USAPA's days numbered in a merger scenario with UA, Nicolau still exists and is just as legally binding as before.

Don't worry. You'll understand all of this soon enough.

 

[prechilill]

A prenuptial is a definite possibility considering Parker's admission that he would do things differently in the next merger and the reality of the overwhelming majority of UA pilots by a 3 to 1 margin. He is quite aware of what labor unrest means, and is equally aware how much worse it would be if over 3/4 of the resulting airline's pilots declare war on him.

A prenuptual is a definite probablity. Parker would be stupid not to do one and the UAL MEC would be even dumber not to demand one. UAL out numbers US by almost 2:1 and USAPA is edentulous. 99% of the AWA pilots would side with UAL regardless because anything UAL offers would be better than what USAPA has threatened us with. At least with UAL if they staple the US pilots they would probably do it using the Nicolau order. This isn't to say that is how UAL operates, it merely exemplifies a worst-case scenario we face in the West. Basically, there can't be anything worse for the west pilots than to have USAP's wishes come true.

 

[EastUS]

You mean all the folks who were saying that they were forming USAPA because of ALPA costs were just blowing smoke up a bodily oriface?

Nope. I've long-found alpa to be purely a parasitical pestilence within the pilot community, and wanted them/it GONE! There were certainly those "fence-sitting" that were eventually convinced by recent, arrogant, costly, and frankly insane alpa blunders. In fairness; It must be fairly admitted that one couldn't have produced more "You've GOT to be freaking KIDDING!??" effect than Nic did though.

 

[EastUS]

A prenuptual is a definite probablity. Parker would be stupid not to do one and the UAL MEC would be even dumber not to demand one. UAL out numbers US by almost 2:1 and USAPA is edentulous. 99% of the AWA pilots would side with UAL regardless because anything UAL offers would be better than what USAPA has threatened us with. At least with UAL if they staple the US pilots they would probably do it using the Nicolau order. This isn't to say that is how UAL operates, it merely exemplifies a worst-case scenario we face in the West. Basically, there can't be anything worse for the west pilots than to have USAP's wishes come true.

Sounds great...naturally, and as per usual, assuming that the collective concerns revolve enitrely around the 1700 pilots out west. While I put no more faith in any given sooth-sayer's projections than another, here's an interesting view on the west-assumed "radiantly glowing future" from one:

"There are [few] easy answers for an airline in United's situation, but a
merger just isn't one of them," said Hubert Horan, a Phoenix-based aviation
consultant.

Horan thinks that a United-US Airways linkup may find it more difficult to
navigate the industry's troublesome landscape. He thinks the costs of
combining computers, reservation systems and fleets could wipe out much of the
potential cost savings. There's also the possibility of potential disruptions that
could be triggered by trying to integrate United's pilots with their
balkanized counterparts at US Airways.

"The last thing you need, especially heading into a recession and with fuel
volatility, is to spend $1 billion of cash reserves that are already
dwindling … on what would be the most hellaciously complex merger in aviation
history," Horan said. "It's like dropping a gasoline-soaked bomb on six union
groups."

Note the contained notion = "There's also the possibility of potential disruptions that
could be triggered by trying to integrate United's pilots with their
balkanized counterparts at US Airways."

Yeppers..zero doubt that all concerned will be soley focused on kissing ex-AWA arse in this mess...no doubt at all....

As always..time and events will tell.

PS: You've noted that: "99% of the AWA pilots would side with UAL regardless.." or, in other words, be fine with "rolling over" for anything. I can only assume from that, that "they" would then have, very reasonably, zero concerns for much fretting over what your "side" thinks. Just a thought. While it's traditionally, long been an alpa negotiating "strategy" to immediately come forward with a white flag and a promise of "We'll do ANYTHING that you want!!", ummm...you "might" be better seved by evidencing some slightly reduced enthusiasm for immediately dancing to the chosen music of others..unless your name's Blanche Dubois: "I have always depended upon the kindess of strangers"....

Should this fiasco come to pass; The UA pilots will have THEIR best interests in mind....period.

 

[prechilill]

Yeppers..zero doubt that all concerned will be soley focused on kissing AWA arse in this mess.


As always..time and events will tell.

As always...there is never a shortage of opinion

 

[Flyz4food]

Well..it certainly is thus far,🙄 and is properly exemplified by your famous "Ho Ho Ho!..St Nic is coming to town!"..or perhaps better yet by your comrade Leonidas "reasonably" noting "I want the captain seat and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!"

As for the continuous-looped ranting, implying emotional overload rather than reason? 'Tis worthy of little comment other than: "Methinks the Lady doth protesteth too much" Here's but the most recent..without seeking additonal and complete overkill, by any usage of PHX Roadshow references:

You have the floor prechilill:'

"Have to say something, don't you, no matter how distorted it comes out."

"I think what 4/17/08 showed not just to the America West pilots but to the piloting profession as a whole was how emotional and dysfunctional you guys are in your thinking.
Whether UAL merges with US or not will not affect the Nicolau list nor the long term prospects of your emotional union experiment."

"You guys are extremely angry and bitter, you found a convenient target with ALPA. It's kind of like the spoiled teenager blaming their tyrannical parents (who have rules to live by) for all the troubles and setbacks in their horrible, suburban existence... "

Yep "It's kind of like the spoiled teenager" as demonstrated 🙄

No matter really..as all the ranting in the world changes nothing of our collective circumstances, but rather, merely serves to add some color to discussions. At least things aren't boring at present It's interesting to see differing takes on what's "Definately/for-sure-this-time/certainly gonna' happen...escpecially since all any of us can really do is take our best guess, and do what we can.

"May you live in interesting times"

you forgot your usual mention of the quote of " I want your seat"

 

[EastUS]

you forgot your usual mention of the quote of " I want your seat"

(Scratches head..looks back over post).... Nope..I covered that = "...by your comrade Leonidas "reasonably" noting "I want the captain seat and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!" 🙄 Evidently, you didn't actually read the post. BTW: I certainly don't want YOUR seat, nor that of any west pilot, if that helps at all. :blink:

 

[commuter]

You really should go back to the minor leagues, my friend. Don't worry. You'll understand all of this soon enough.

I guess time will tell which one of us actually comprehends what's taken place and which direction we are heading; We're clearly on different pages. Ironically, here's what your own pilot union stated today as their direction and priority:

Workers linger in uncertainty amid US Airways-United merger rumors

By Tom Fontaine, Times Staff
Published: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:49 PM EDT

Here we go again. That’s how most US Airways employees feel about the reported merger talks going on between their company and United Airlines.

“It’s safe to say that the pilots, or at least the union leadership, is not going to be looking forward to any new merger until we close the door on the old merger” with the former America West, said Charlotte-based pilot James Ray, a spokesman for the U.S. Airline Pilots Association, which replaced the Air Line Pilots Association as the airline’s new pilot union last month.

And the door won’t close on the so-called old merger, Ray said, until a joint contract can be reached that benefits all 5,200 pilots from the two former airlines. Minus that, the union will resist any new merger, he said.

 

[Flyz4food]

(Scratches head..looks back over post).... Nope..I covered that = "...by your comrade Leonidas "reasonably" noting "I want the captain seat and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!" 🙄 Evidenlty, you didn't read the post. BTW: I certainly don't want YOUR seat, nor that of any west pilot, if that helps at all. :blink:

Usually, way too long winded. I skip most of it, just missed it I guess. Happy Mother's Day.

 

[sharktooth]

So you think that the USAPA vote also waved a magic wand and *POOF* Nicolau no longer exists. Well, tell me what other parts of the TA also disappeared since all parts of the TA involved both pilot groups, ALPA and the company.
I guess what many of us outside of your group can't figure out is your logic because all agreements in the past are inherited by USAPA- Bradford admitted to it, Parker stands by it and the law says it.

What part of "tentative" do you not understand?