USAPA/ALPA US Pilot Labor Thread 5/10-5/17

[sharktooth]

At least with UAL if they staple the US pilots they would probably do it using the Nicolau order.

Thanks for finally admitting that the "nic" is a staple job.

 

[EastUS]

Usually, way too long winded. I skip most of it, just missed it I guess. Happy Mother's Day.

No problem. Try Speed Reading International & Evelyn Wood Reading Dynamics. You can establish a rate of several thousand words per minute....no joke/no kidding whatsoever.
I appreciate the Mother's Day wishes...and wish that I could send a card or make any call that "far away".

Take Care/Best to yours.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Good Lord! You are so far off base.

First of all, I am former TWA. I left years before they were absorbed by AA. However many of my closest friends did not. TWA ALPA signed a document giving up their rights to ANY seniority integration and agreed to submit to the will of APA as part of the preconditions of the transaction. Get it? They voluntarily gave up their rights in order to protect SOME jobs (those who were slotted in) and obtaining recall rights to AA for the rest, as opposed to facing liquidation and the unemployment line for everyone. It was far from being a merger. AA said here are our terms, take them or leave them. TWA and ALPA agreed knowing there was no alternative.

IF UA and US merge, as soon as there is a single carrier status, the pilots will shortly thereafter be represented by ALPA. This will all occur long before a seniority integration occurs. The legal and accepted list that has already been presented to your company, including the Nicolau award will be the basis for the snapshot, and ALPA merger policy will commence thereafter. This all assumes that there is no prenuptial agreement between the two parties. A prenuptial is a definite possibility considering Parker's admission that he would do things differently in the next merger and the reality of the overwhelming majority of UA pilots by a 3 to 1 margin. He is quite aware of what labor unrest means, and is equally aware how much worse it would be if over 3/4 of the resulting airline's pilots declare war on him.

But if you want to believe otherwise in order to sleep at night, that's your prerogative.

If what you say is true, what in the world would Congress and the President have had in mind when they passed and signed that bill last December. It came about almost entirely as a consequence of the flight attendants union raising heck over how the TWA flight attendants were treated in the AA merger. If your contention is true and all airline mergers have the union vote BEFORE the seniority is decided, WHAT POINT DOES THE NEW LAW HAVE? Did Congress just do this because they had nothing better to do the week before Christmas and wanted to waste a bit more paper?

 

[LOA93]

What part of "tentative" do you not understand?

TA means transition agreement (in this context)

 

[commuter]

Good Lord! You are so far off base. IF UA and US merge, as soon as there is a single carrier status, the pilots will shortly thereafter be represented by ALPA. This will all occur long before a seniority integration occurs.

As I understand you, you believe ALPA can simply bypass the McCaskill bill, now law, (attached below), and do with the US Airways pilots as it pleases? Further, that this law is nothing but hot air, meaningless. Then you tell me I am off base. <_< Sounds like you have a heck of a plan there, 767; good luck.

SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION.

(a) LABOR INTEGRATION- With respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that-

(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section; and

(2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions.

DEFINITIONS- In this section, the following definitions apply:

(1) AIR CARRIER- The term `air carrier' means an air carrier that holds a certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49, United States Code.
(2) COVERED AIR CARRIER- The term `covered air carrier' means an air carrier that is involved in a covered transaction.
(3) COVERED EMPLOYEE- The term `covered employee' means an employee who--
(A) is not a temporary employee; and is a member of a craft or class that is subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.).
(4) COVERED TRANSACTION- The term `covered transaction' means--
(A) a transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier; and which involves the transfer of ownership or control of--
(i) 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101 of title 11, United States Code) of an air carrier; or
(ii) 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier.

© APPLICATION- This section shall not apply to any covered transaction involving a covered air carrier that took place before the date of enactment of this Act.

(d) EFFECTIVENESS OF PROVISION- This section shall become effective on the date of enactment of this Act and shall continue in effect in fiscal years after fiscal year 2008.

Allegheny Mohawk LPP,
Labor Protective Provisions, sections 2(a), 3, and 13(a)).2


Section 2(a). The term "merger" as used herein means joint action by the two carriers whereby they unify, consolidate, merge, or pool in whole or in part their
separate airline facilities or any of the operations or services previously performed by them through such separate facilities.

* * *

Section 3. Insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers' employees, provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and
equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the carriers and the representative of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either party for adjustment in accordance with section 13.

* * *

Section 13(a). In the event that any dispute or controversy arises with respect to the protections provided herein, which cannot be settled by the parties
within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National
Mediation Board for consideration and determination.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Thanks for finally admitting that the "nic" is a staple job.

sharkface -

The poster said "if" they staple the US pilots. But you know what? That sure sounds good to me and my band of 1800 brothers here in the west.

I can hear the termites now.... chomping away contentedly on that eastie bully pulpit. One nibble at a time.....

We will prevail.

By the way - your top 517 did get stapled. So quitcherbitchin. You got more than you deserved in arbitration.

NLC

 

[fomike]

The Nicolau award is not implemented until a joint contract is ratified by the US Airways pilots; this most likely will not occur if a merger is announced soon, thus the Nicolau award is moot.
The union (USAPA), not US Airways management, provides the seniority list to any arbitrator. US Airways scope includes Allegheny-Mohawk LPP protection much the same as the new Federal Law signed by Bush in December 2007.

In the interest of all the pilots involved it would seem we should define career expectations and windfall for the next arbitrator to utilize in any future merger or press for date of hire with the appropriate conditions and restrictions to protect all pilots involved.

 

[sharktooth]

TA means transition agreement (in this context)

Oops.

I jumped a few logical hurdles doing that, sorry.

This transition agreement spells out the methods used to lead to heaven. Several of the methods have not been implemented, therefore everything associated with that are in stasis, and likely will remain in stasis until all components are complied with (not likely).

 

[sharktooth]

The poster said "if" they staple the US pilots. But you know what? That sure sounds good to me and my band of 1800 brothers here in the west.

Yes, he did. and it meant the same. Imposing the "nic" would staple the east pilots. Thanks for providing that piece of evidence.

You guys are so "giving". Don't stop. You are doing great!

I especially like when one of your outspoken MEC members sent me the bubbas.jpg. Openness is always better, I say.

 

[767jetz]

As I understand you, you believe ALPA can simply bypass the McCaskill bill, now law, (attached below),...

(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section

Do you not read what you post???????

ALPA will not bypass anything. The law states that if both groups are represented by the same union (ie: ALPA), then ALPA's merger policy supersedes this legislation. Are you REALLY that dense that I have to spoon feed you your very own words?

 

[767jetz]

Ironically, here's what your own pilot union stated today as their direction and priority:

Excuse me, but as a United pilot I fail to understand why are you quoting to me a USAPA pilot and claiming he is one of MY union leaders???

Get a clue.

 

[20 YEAR FO]

Yes, he did. and it meant the same. Imposing the "nic" would staple the east pilots. Thanks for providing that piece of evidence.

You guys are so "giving". Don't stop. You are doing great!

Shark, you're goofing all this up. TA is transition agreement. The Nic. wasn't a staple. It was relative. Doh is a staple of awa, but who cares , we are older and have the majority.

 

[sharktooth]

Shark, you're goofing all this up. TA is transition agreement. The Nic. wasn't a staple. It was relative. Doh is a staple of awa, but who cares , we are older and have the majority.

He implied imposing the "nic" was a staple. Yeah, I screwed up on the TA thingy, but, in fact, it means no change. Until completed in every way, it is still a tentative type of agreement, setting out a road-map for the future. It is not an agreement until all parts are complied with, therefore it is temporary, tentative. (yeah, I'm messing with the english but the point is the same, which is more a flaw in english than anything else).

The "nic" was, indeed, a staple, even as the TWA-AA or PI-Empire was a staple. There was no "relative" seniority, ever. From a flawed list to not even trying to equalize the staffing between carriers, saying relative distribution is kinda like saying Saddam had WMD, a complete lie.

 

[commuter]

Do you not read what you post???????

ALPA will not bypass anything. The law states that if both groups are represented by the same union (ie: ALPA), then ALPA's merger policy supersedes this legislation. Are you REALLY that dense that I have to spoon feed you your very own words?

News flash, 767, US Airways pilots are not ALPA any more, understand this to mean: UAL and US do not share the same collective bargaining agency. So once again, help me out, 767, I'm really dense; just how will ALPA circumvent federal law? 🙄

 

[commuter]

Excuse me, but as a United pilot......... Get a clue.

You don't act like one.............