Ward running for President again?

[StraaightTaalk]

Latest rumor, pretty much substantiated by several reliable sources, indicate that the erstwhile former APFA President, John Ward, ridden out of town on a rail in 2004, is going to run again for APFA President.

I can't believe anybody would vote for him.

 

[IORFA]

As if THB is any better. THB is the queen of LOA's. John has a better chance, now that the TW block vote is severly diminished. Not to say that I would vote for John, but I won't say today that I wouldn't vote for him.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

As if THB is any better. THB is the queen of LOA's. John has a better chance, now that the TW block vote is severly diminished. Not to say that I would vote for John, but I won't say today that I wouldn't vote for him.

I'll have to see, depending on who else is running, but I cannot imagine voting for this man again. While THB's big downfall was the LOA's, Ward did far worse.

 

[eolesen]

Did Ward really do a worse job than anyone else in that position could have done?

It's easy to single him out because of the office he held, but there weren't exactly a lot of options on the table (literally and figuratively) in 2003. I don't care how much Bob Owens and others want to argue differently, but a ride thru bankruptcy would have been a far worse alternative for everyone, and not just the privileged execs and their stock options.

If you think your contract was gutted, just go and compare any contract pre-2000 at the bankruptcy sisters and their current contract. You got a slap on the ass. They got a beating from a 2x4 with rusty nails in it...

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Did Ward really do a worse job than anyone else in that position could have done?

It's easy to single him out because of the office he held, but there weren't exactly a lot of options on the table (literally and figuratively) in 2003. I don't care how much Bob Owens and others want to argue differently, but a ride thru bankruptcy would have been a far worse alternative for everyone, and not just the privileged execs and their stock options.

If you think your contract was gutted, just go and compare any contract pre-2000 at the bankruptcy sisters and their current contract. You got a slap on the ass. They got a beating from a 2x4 with rusty nails in it...

I was willing to support him even after the RPA debacle, because I realized that A LOT was going on. I cannot support him after the election debacle, when even after he was found not to have won, he refused to leave office.

 

[FA Mikey]

I don't doubt thats true Eric, however, john wards inability to be prepared for the inevitable give backs. Is a great shows his true lack of leadership. Beyond what he did to AA fa's he royally screwed the ex TWA fa's. I cannot think of one single positive thing he or his administration accomplished in those 4 long years.

I know john ward from working at apfa years ago. He was a slime ball then and is a bigger one now. I know he will always have his YAHOO cheerleaders. But having worked the line with more than a few of those as well. That is not much of an endorsement.

People will likely want to tout the industry leading contract reached prior to 911. Although the bulk of all that work was accomplished by the Hedges administration. The rework done after he took office amounted to no, new real dollars. Just slight of hand with some quality of work life items traded off for a ever so slightly hourly raise. Its debatable as to in any situation whether a non monetary item is worth more as it self or traded for a few pennys per hour.

 

[nbmcg01]

Did Ward really do a worse job than anyone else in that position could have done?

It's easy to single him out because of the office he held, but there weren't exactly a lot of options on the table (literally and figuratively) in 2003. I don't care how much Bob Owens and others want to argue differently, but a ride thru bankruptcy would have been a far worse alternative for everyone, and not just the privileged execs and their stock options.

If you think your contract was gutted, just go and compare any contract pre-2000 at the bankruptcy sisters and their current contract. You got a slap on the ass. They got a beating from a 2x4 with rusty nails in it...

Just about anyone could have done better. Value of a contractual item is established at the time it is negotiated. You don't allow a company in concessionary talks to arbitrarily assign an deflated number to up the anti. Also, no credit was sought for the loss of 6000 jobs. Savings? You think? There were no efforts to negotiate "me too", "snap back", or "crawl back" provisions. When BK is on the table AND the unions are willing to "help", the Company should be saying "thank you" not "screw you". The APFA should have never allowed the company to dictate WHICH contractual items were up for discussion. There were alternate agreements that were never presented, which would have saved jobs. John Ward GAVE away furlough pay because he was ticked off that the company gave pay seniority to the acquired f/as. Something about the "killer B" vs senior women...lol And most harmful of all was an illegal extending of the vote, plus the promise of a revote that lost the respect of most.

TH-B has been relatively benign compared to the Ward atrocities. She has done far less "harm" in the long run. John Ward losr 1/4th of his membership without blinking an eye.

Bottom line: When you're ASKING for financial help from your employees, and they are WILLING to help, a prepared union controls the negotiations.( or you walk out of the talks until the company is ready to negotiate in good faith) You don't play games seeking concessions for no cost or cost neutral, quality of life enhancements that could have been put in place FOR the concessions. But then Ward caved and the rest is either in court or history.

Don't discount the vote of the "deminished"...They vote. There is no apathy and as the most junior will be rallying other junior f/as for a fair share of "the pie". (or choice of leadership) Hopefully, there will be a strong dark horse that will sweep the election. Yeah right,

 

[StraaightTaalk]

He took APFA closer to extinction than any previous President. According to several APFA Chairs I spoke to, the Department of Labor was ready to come in and take control of the union if he did not leave office.

I cannot support this man.

 

[FA Mikey]

Pat Gibbs was closer to killing us than john ward and his antics. We have had some very good past presidents and some sorry, very sorry SOB's. Is it just me or do the sorrier one's seem to all come from a certain Texas base?

another way to tell something about a past president. Since you cannot compare contract to contract, very easy. Look through letters of agreement with the company to see what was happening and what was negotiated to our benefit and what was to our detriment.

 

[Maark767]

Did Ward really do a worse job than anyone else in that position could have done?

It's easy to single him out because of the office he held, but there weren't exactly a lot of options on the table (literally and figuratively) in 2003. I don't care how much Bob Owens and others want to argue differently, but a ride thru bankruptcy would have been a far worse alternative for everyone, and not just the privileged execs and their stock options.

If you think your contract was gutted, just go and compare any contract pre-2000 at the bankruptcy sisters and their current contract. You got a slap on the ass. They got a beating from a 2x4 with rusty nails in it...

You are soo right on that one !!! He did the best job he could under the circumstanses.... I always said, he most likely knew what was in store for the membership, had AA gone into bankruptcy... That's why he pushed for the Restruct. Agreement. It was the better of the two... Also ..things would be very different around here if AA had a Bankruptcy Judge on their side. Very Different ....

 

[Maark767]

Just about anyone could have done better. Value of a contractual item is established at the time it is negotiated. You don't allow a company in concessionary talks to arbitrarily assign an deflated number to up the anti. Also, no credit was sought for the loss of 6000 jobs. Savings? You think? There were no efforts to negotiate "me too", "snap back", or "crawl back" provisions. When BK is on the table AND the unions are willing to "help", the Company should be saying "thank you" not "screw you". The APFA should have never allowed the company to dictate WHICH contractual items were up for discussion. There were alternate agreements that were never presented, which would have saved jobs. John Ward GAVE away furlough pay because he was ticked off that the company gave pay seniority to the acquired f/as. Something about the "killer B" vs senior women...lol And most harmful of all was an illegal extending of the vote, plus the promise of a revote that lost the respect of most.

TH-B has been relatively benign compared to the Ward atrocities. She has done far less "harm" in the long run. John Ward losr 1/4th of his membership without blinking an eye.

Bottom line: When you're ASKING for financial help from your employees, and they are WILLING to help, a prepared union controls the negotiations.( or you walk out of the talks until the company is ready to negotiate in good faith) You don't play games seeking concessions for no cost or cost neutral, quality of life enhancements that could have been put in place FOR the concessions. But then Ward caved and the rest is either in court or history.

Don't discount the vote of the "deminished"...They vote. There is no apathy and as the most junior will be rallying other junior f/as for a fair share of "the pie". (or choice of leadership) Hopefully, there will be a strong dark horse that will sweep the election. Yeah right,

Remember there was NO negotiating with AA... They said "take it or we'll file " end of story. The RPA was the best APFA could do ... now you think BK would have been better ??? Look around and see what the other carriers got from a trip or two through BK. He knew this RPA was the best we were going to get. Imagine a BK judge on AA side... you talk about furlough pay being gone... !!!

 

[s80dude]

There is a leadership drain at APFA in a big way. Even the Negotiator candidates are nothing to write home about. A lot of retreads and some others who are a step away from the looney bin.

NONE OF THE ABOVE if I had my way, but alas, I have to vote..... I guess it will come down to the lesser of evils.

JMHO,
s80dude

 

[eolesen]

I'd forgotten about Ward refusing to accept the election results... That would make it a little difficult for me to support bringing him back.

 

[nbmcg01]

Remember there was NO negotiating with AA... They said "take it or we'll file " end of story. The RPA was the best APFA could do ... now you think BK would have been better ??? Look around and see what the other carriers got from a trip or two through BK. He knew this RPA was the best we were going to get. Imagine a BK judge on AA side... you talk about furlough pay being gone... !!!

IF AA had seriously wanted to stay out of BK do you honestly think the f/as COULD have broken the bank? Not hardly. AA played hardball and JW was still in the minor leagues. The pilots were so concerned about their pensions being placed into PBGC that they would have sold their first born and 3rd wife. What the unions failed to "get" was the fact that AA had come to them requesting help. It is nothing short of BS that the unions didn't have any clout. You say "NO", "Come back when you're serious about negotiating". It wasn't about the $$s, the APFA was willing to give them the requested $340, 000,000. They just messed up on how the numbers were generated. There is always negotiating in a concessionary environment. Many of us offered behind the scenes assistance (been there) but we were totally ignored...so we voted NO. Didn't make any difference because even with a no vote, AA and the APFA colluded to fix the outcome. And for that (and my career) I hold JW responsible.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

IF AA had seriously wanted to stay out of BK do you honestly think the f/as COULD have broken the bank? Not hardly. AA played hardball and JW was still in the minor leagues. The pilots were so concerned about their pensions being placed into PBGC that they would have sold their first born and 3rd wife. What the unions failed to "get" was the fact that AA had come to them requesting help. It is nothing short of BS that the unions didn't have any clout. You say "NO", "Come back when you're serious about negotiating". It wasn't about the $$s, the APFA was willing to give them the requested $340, 000,000. They just messed up on how the numbers were generated. There is always negotiating in a concessionary environment. Many of us offered behind the scenes assistance (been there) but we were totally ignored...so we voted NO. Didn't make any difference because even with a no vote, AA and the APFA colluded to fix the outcome. And for that (and my career) I hold JW responsible.

I completely agree. He had every opportunity, when seeing the games the company was playing, to stop and walk out. I don't buy for one minute that nonsense that his cheerleaders have been trained to repeat ad nauseum, that the APFA Board made him do it. Funny how he was the "leader" when it was convenient for him, and the rest of the time, he blamed everything on the Board.