Watch the July 14th, 2012 - AMFA Informational Meeting

[1AA]

So you are finally down to a one sentence meaningless response of a personal attack,
Just as I thoroughly described you earlier.

Give him time he is reloading.

 

[Overspeed]

You are losing your overhaul not keeping it. What do you think 35% outsource and "peak demand" outsource with new aircraft coming means?

And your pension was frozen not terminated because the director of the PBGC's strategy to file leans on AA's property worked. You might also note that I said "TWU attacks used 10 years ago". And you want to twist in more recent events and call me a liar? You are not paying attention to detail, you are an emotional rapid fire agent against change.

You can lie and credit the TWU with the pension status if you like, but most readers here, and most AMT's keep up with the facts and know a big fat lie when they hear one. I bet you even believe the TWU landed the rover on Mars recently too?

A US Airways merger could happen next week and within 36 months the Tulsa base could be gone. But hey, keep bashinig, every other tool you have used has happened to the TWU why stop now?

We are not losing our overhaul as you state. Per the new CBA scope language OSS % will be capped at 35% of maintenance spend (labor and material) so while we will see some decline in overhaul work over the coming years due to new aircraft maintenance honeymoon period we will regain those jobs once those aircraft get older. That's what makes the TWU langauge superior to the AMFA WN language. As their aircraft get older at WN guess what? The AMFA negotiated cap of 2.75 AMTs locks them in to a set HC no matter what the work load is. WN management can, and will, increase outsourcing beyond their current level with little restrictions. That's a big lose on AMFA's part at WN when comparing scope language.

Also, if AA merges with US then the TWU scope language again helps us and those that are going to be reduced due to the new CBA. Why? Because US outsources more work than AA does even with the new language. The new AA/US will have to bring some US aircraft in-house that they do not currently. AA would have to reconsider it's base footprint as US airframes would be covered under the TWU CBA. Of course an interim agreement would have to be worked out if a merger happens but I believe US and AA AMTs would want to stand fast on the TWU scope language.

Dave face it. The AMFA philosophy and past history is one that leans heavily on increased outsourcing. Whether or not that brings better compensation is debatable but the facts lead one to believe that higher in-house wages are a trade off with outsourcing. Just tell the truth, AMFA has not negotiated or extended any agreement that brings any significant work back in-house much less hold on to any incumbent overhaul work (ref. AS, NW, and UA) and that is a fact.

Oh and incidentally, the TWU was involved with the Mars Rover. The TWU represents the workers at KSC/Cape Canaveral. The TWU represents rocket mechanics too.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

So the AMFA simply blames the membership for what ever choices they make even though they may know those choices may lead to their doom....WOW, WOW, WOW.....

Once again you attempt to paint the AMFA structure as bad because in your eys democracy and accountability in unionism is evil. The only good union is an industrial, catch all union where democracy is taken to mean the membership must do as we say and we appoint ourselves. WOW, WOW, WOW...

Isn't it the twu m.o. for forcing a bad contract with concessions to be brought for a ratification vote and if passed blaming the membership by saying "You guys voted for it?".

Go AMFA!

 

[1AA]

Once again you attempt to paint the AMFA structure as bad because in your eys democracy and accountability in unionism is evil. The only good union is an industrial, catch all union where democracy is taken to mean the membership must do as we say and we appoint ourselves. WOW, WOW, WOW...

Isn't it the twu m.o. for forcing a bad contract with concessions to be brought for a ratification vote and if passed blaming the membership by saying "You guys voted for it?".

Go AMFA!

Yes this time we voted for it and 48 more voted Yes. That's a real victory for the TWU.
Now they get their $5 million plus for making the company happy and screwing the workers. This was the ultimate sacrifice we made to get rid of the TWU. We are down but not out of the game yet. Those AMFA cards keep flowing in day after day. Our victory will be coming soon when we kick the TWU out on their butts!

 

[odie01]

Here we go again blaming the AMFA for outsourcing o/h at UAL. I called you on this lie before and I guess I'm going to have to do it again. Do you have another trailor with a coffin and headstones so that you can lie to the membership again. You know that the iam was the union that did that. Remember when I told you what to google so that you can find the answer to that so that you would not lie to the members,but in true twu form you try and perpetuate the lie so that you can confuse the members. This has been proven to you many times,but you continue to lie to everybody on this board. At NW the iam already outsourced the DC-10 and 747 before Amfa came on the property,but you blame the AMFA for that also. The twu and other industrial unions blame the AMFA for the job loses at other airlines when it was the industrial unions that put the language in the contract to do so. So according to history when the AMFA takes over at AA they will get blamed for all of the job being outsourced. The only part of this that is remotely true is Alaska at Oak and that was 3 lines of O/H having approximatly 340 jobs. How many lines of O/H were there in KC and how many mechanic and related were there when the twu took over the misrepresentation of those people. Lets not forget about AFW who will be losing at least four full time lines and 1 or 2 lines of drop ins and other work at any one time. Not to mention the approximatly 1300 mechanic and related work force. The twu has and is giving up more O/H than the AMFA has given up and this does not even touch on what is going to happen to Tulsa in the future. The Tulsa reps that were selling this piece of crap contract will have to answer to the members when the layoffs start to happen in T-Town. Do you think that Bobby Gless knew anything about what was going to happen to AFW and Tulsa when he signed the letter of agreement to make DWH a maintenance base. My guess is he did. So why don't you talk this over with your buddy Van De Loo before you guys post again.

Bump

Enjoy your Labor Day off for those of you in OH, can't believe Memorial Day is not a Holiday! How un-AAmerican! Good post 76mech

 

[Bob Owens]

Per the new CBA scope language OSS % will be capped at 35% of maintenance spend (labor and material) so while we will see some decline in overhaul work over the coming years due to new aircraft maintenance honeymoon period we will regain those jobs once those aircraft get older.

If they can outsource 35% of the maintenance spend then what would make them bring the work back in house?

The way its written the cheaper they can find a place to do the work the more TWU members can be laid off, and our language allows them to ship any work any where.

So if they ship work out to Singapore and it comes to line in poor shape, and runs up line maintenance costs that would allow them to ship out even more OH not less. OH could be facing a double whammy paying low for the MRO allows them to send more work out, cutting more heads, then increased spending on the line due to the poor quality also allows them to send more work out and cut even more heads.

The fact is they can outsource more than 35% because the language excludes certain maintenance from the spend, such as the work they do at Taesl. So lets say the new aircraft shift work to the engine shop in Tulsa because they arent RR engines, sure a few heads may be added to the shop but that would allow them to outsource more airframe work (which drive a lot of heads) and eliminate a lot more heads than they would be adding in the engine shop and thats not even counting the heads from Taesl, and the new number would be more than 35% because our language allows the company to adjust the cap "accordingly" in the event Taesl is abandoned.

So there is nothing in the contract that says that once the heads are lost that they will ever return, in addition to the above AA has hangars all over the country, whats to prevent them from changing over to phase checks like their competitors that can be done in those hangars on the line?

We may regain that work, but its not because of Article 1, its because of Articles 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 21, 25, 26, 34, 36, 37, 40, 41 and the various LOAs that put us all at the very bottom of the industry making our labor so cheap that it would be hard for AA to find a cost effective way to outsource more than the so called cap allows.

 

[High Speed Steel]

If they can outsource 35% of the maintenance spend then what would make them bring the work back in house?

The fact is they can outsource more than 35% because the language excludes certain maintenance from the spend, such as the work the do at Taesl. So lets say the new aircraft shift work to the engine shop in Tulsa because they arent RR engines, sure a few heads may be added to the shop but that would allow them to outsource more cabin work and eliminate a lot more heads than they would be adding in the engine shop and thats not even counting the heads from Taesl, and the new number would be more than 35% because our language allows the company to adjust the cap "accordingly" in the event Taesl is abandoned.

So there is nothing in the contract that says that once the heads are lost that they will ever return, in addition to the above AA has hangars all over the country, whats to prevent them from changing over to phase checks like their competitors that can be done in those hangars on the line?

We may regain that work, but its not because of Article 1, its because of Articles 3 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 21, 25, 26, 34, 36, 37, 40, 41 and the various LOAs that put us all at the very bottom of the industry making our labor so cheap that it would be hard for AA to find a cost effective way to outsource more than the so called cap allows.

Here in Tulsa they have been doing some equipment upgrades in the shops, they even modernized a dinosaur in my work area. It looks like they are gearing up to have the Charlie Taylor's take charge and make them some money.... 🙄

 

[TWU informer]

Here in Tulsa they have been doing some equipment upgrades in the shops, they even modernized a dinosaur in my work area. It looks like they are gearing up to have the Charlie Taylor's take charge and make them some money.... 🙄

Even after 20 plus years you still do not get that the left doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
Get a clue, equipment upgrades mean nothing of the sort.

 

[swamt]

Yes this time we voted for it and 48 more voted Yes. That's a real victory for the TWU.
Now they get their $5 million plus for making the company happy and screwing the workers. This was the ultimate sacrifice we made to get rid of the TWU. We are down but not out of the game yet. Those AMFA cards keep flowing in day after day. Our victory will be coming soon when we kick the TWU out on their butts!

Correction. It's 5 million. Plus 2 million for "assoiciated fees" endured. As well as the 4.8% equity for the TWU international. Millions upon millions givin to the TWU for them to push, sell, and promote the companies offer.
Nothing better than a company union--TWU, WOW!!

 

[swamt]

Bump

Enjoy your Labor Day off for those of you in OH, can't believe Memorial Day is not a Holiday! How un-AAmerican! Good post 76mech

It is a good post. And everyone can verify by just a couple of clicks away. It states in the IAM contract, before AMFA ever came on property, what the IAM was willing to give up. And yes, everything AMFA is getting blamed for, was in fact the fault of the IAM. Once again, very easily verified...

 

[1AA]

It is a good post. And everyone can verify by just a couple of clicks away. It states in the IAM contract, before AMFA ever came on property, what the IAM was willing to give up. And yes, everything AMFA is getting blamed for, was in fact the fault of the IAM. Once again, very easily verified...

Wait until AMFA gets in at AA. You will hear that AMFA is to blame for all the failed policies and failures of the contract and its language or lack of.

 

[1AA]

Here in Tulsa they have been doing some equipment upgrades in the shops, they even modernized a dinosaur in my work area. It looks like they are gearing up to have the Charlie Taylor's take charge and make them some money.... 🙄

Means absolutely nothing. Ask the guys at DFW about the state of the art wheel shop AA set up and it never came to be. I believe it was somewhere around 1988-89 or so All that money spent on the line assembly tire shop and it was all torn down.

Did you ever think that AA might be upgrading the shops in preparation to sell it off or lease it out? Any contract language to prevent this from happening? Just because your neighbor fixes up his house does not mean he is doing it for himself. He might be fixing it up so he can get a better price to sell it. Face it, with this contract being so vague we are left with our pants down. Anything can happen at anytime. Who is to stop it? Not the TWU. Not you or I. Not anybody!!!

 

[TWU informer]

AND MORE ON THE TWU LIES

How many of you have been told that AMFA was to blame at UAL for the closing of the Indianaplois and Oakland Maintenance Bases?

Here is the IAM/UAL restructuring agrrement and Page 8 clearly show that is was the IAM that allowed those base closures.

http://www.amfa-aa.c...ay_OAK_INDY.pdf

 

[Anomaly]

AND MORE ON THE TWU LIES

How many of you have been told that AMFA was to blame at UAL for the closing of the Indianaplois and Oakland Maintenance Bases?

Here is the IAM/UAL restructuring agrrement and Page 8 clearly show that is was the IAM that allowed those base closures.

http://www.amfa-aa.c...ay_OAK_INDY.pdf

As usual, you are only telling half the story. Or at least the part that helps you produce your fantasy about amfa.

Lets start from the raise in 2002.

March 5, 2002
IAM 141-M members ratify February 18 T/A. Contract features 37% pay increase for top mechanics and retroactive pay paid in eight quarterly payments. Pension multiplier increases from $60.04 to $87.00.

October 21, 2002
UAL announces the closure of one of three 757 maintenance lines at the Indianapolis Maintenance Center. This results in 250 mechanic furloughs.

December 9, 2002
UAL files for bankruptcy protection under Chapter 11.

December 18, 2002
United announces a mechanic furlough of additional 569 employees: 275 from IND and 160 from SFO/OAK and other line stations (I was one of these with over 18 years).

January 7, 2003
United announces wage reduction agreements as ratified by ALPA, TWU and PAFCA in conjunction with UAL's 1113© filing with the bankruptcy court. United also asks the court to impose interim wage reductions under Section 1113(e) for IAM District 141 and 141-M, because this union did not reach interim agreements on wage reductions with the company. The Court is
expected to rule on UAL's 1113(e) motion against the IAM by January 10, 2003.

March 20, 2003
UAL informs 1,100 mechanics at the Indianapolis Maintenance Center that they will be placed on "temporary unpaid leave" effective March 24. The company cites a "force majuere" contract clause due to the war in Iraq. This allows the company to avoid paying traditional furlough benefits including severance pay, bumping rights, and moving expenses.

April 3, 2003
IAM District 141-M forces company to grant furlough benefits to all Indianapolis Maintenance Center workers place on unpaid leave by filing a preliminary injunction in a U.S. District Court.

April 11, 2003 - THIS IS THE POINT YOU POSTED about Indy which also wiped out the 2002 raise.
IAM District 141-M reaches a T/A with United Airlines. Pay and benefit cuts total $349 million annually for six years. Details of the settlement include a 13 percent all inclusive reduction in hourly wage rates, twenty percent co-pay toward the cost of health insurance and modified work rules.

April 29, 2003
IAM 141-M members ratify agreement with a 70% yes vote. Company withdraws the 1113© motion to reject the CBA.

May 2, 2003
United said it filed a motion in bankruptcy court "to reject its lease at IMC (Indianapolis Maintenance Center) in order to make permanent the closing of the facility." In the same motion it also indicated it will permanently shut down a second repair base in Oakland, CA.

July 2003
Employees allowed to sell their ESOP shares. The typical worker's $70,000 to $100,000 in foregone wages yields a distribution of approximately $2,000.

July 13, 2003
AMFA wins representational vote for Mechanic and Related employees at United. The National Mediation Board certifies AMFA on July 14, 2003.

Much like the situation you were just faced with, we were forced with a no win vote in 2003. UAL was crying poor and the employees were going to pay for the officers bonus one way or another. The company had been pushing the idea to sell off all assets through liquidation as well as nullify the agreement, and too many of us bought in to the idea that they such a move would be possible. Who knows?

What is unspoken by TWU Informer is the campaign for amfa at the time is exactly what is going on right now at AA. We were bombarded with all the same rhetoric you are hearing now. How the industrial unions failed, how they lied, and how the only savior will be to create a craft union of mechanics to represent only our interests. We heard the same thing, and we bought that too. Why not? It could not get much worse, right?

It did. Besides loosing our 2002 wage rates, we took even more cuts to pay and benefits and finally lost our retirement.


November 4, 2004
UAL delivers to the AMFA/UAL 1113 Negotiating Committee the Company Term Sheet (CTS) that lists the changes to the previous IAM CBA that enable the company to save $101 million in average annual costs. The company intends to file an 1113© motion with the bankruptcy court with an early January 2005 hearing date. UAL REOPENS THE CONTRACT nullifying the agreement you posted!

November 30, 2004
The AMFA Negotiating Committee and United Airlines negotiators open discussion to seek an agreement that would avert the company's scheduled January 10, 2005 bankruptcy court hearing to abrogate our CBA. Talks proceed every week for the six week period leading up to the January 10, 2005 hearing (the hearing date was moved up to January 7, 2005 in early January). The discussions are open to the membership as per AMFA constitution but the company does not see the value. Nothing of substance is discussed by UAL with the open arena and the talks go nowhere but down. An agreement is eventually reached, but it is insignificant and is in essence a trap by the company.

January 28, 2005
AMFA members (57%) reject the tentative agreement and support strike by 85%. This closes the jaws on the unsuspecting mechanics and three days later, the companies plan is aboout to unfold.

January 31, 2005
Judge Wedoff rules in the Company's favor on an 1113(e) motion to temporarily change some of the contract terms. These changes include a 9.8% reduction of all wages, 75% pay for all sick leave absences less than 16 consecutive days, and postponement of a 5-1-05 pay increase. The motion also bars AMFA from striking unless the company initiates a permanent non-consensual change to our CBA. This temporary order expires May 31, 2005.

It became very apparent that amfa brought a knife to a gun fight. They were just TOO un prepared and TOO inexperienced for these types of bankruptcy proceedings. amfa simply could not compete.

May 16, 2005
AMFA reaches a tentative concessionary agreement with United Airlines. The tentative agreement includes:
" an additional 3.9% reduction of all wage factors "

In addition we lost the following:
1 Holidays reduced from ten to eight beginning 2006.
2 Overtime pay limited to 1.5x.
3 Holiday pay limited to 2x.
4 Sick pay (regular and industrial) for first seven days paid at 75%, thereafter 100%.
5 Computer Technician and Utility workers outsourced.

May 31, 2005
AMFA announces the ratification of the tentative agreement by a 59% to 41% margin by only 81% of the eligible voters take part in this election.

Worst of all was when we lost our defined pension benefit plan. All amfa could do was stand by and watch. The seeham circus filed inexplicable and pointless law suits which ended up solidifying the companies position and making future pension plan forfeitures easier. At this point, many of us knew the mistake we had made by supporting amfa.

Don't make the same mistake. Do NOT support amfa.

 

[TWU informer]

Anamloy, so you agree that AMFA did not agree to the loss of OAK and INDY but instead it the IAM that agreed to that, which is what the post I made stated clearly, and then you go on rambling to further show that AMFA fared way better than the TWU did in the Bankruptcy.

TWU did not save our defined pension, the PBGC director did by filing legal leans on AA property.

Everything else when compared AMFA did better.

Thanks for the timeline, I will use this to get more AMFA cards signed.

Do you have anymore of that type of data to share? You are becoming our best AMFA organizer, keep up the great work.

Maybe you can now show how much better the other work groups at UAL fared than the Mechanic and Related?? Surely if AMFA was so inferior and unprepared, you can how the other work groups did so much better in bankruptcy?? How about the IBT at Continental, do you have that type of data on that Bankruptcy Case?