Well, no wonder we're pulling back at SJU!

[Hopeful]

Hopeful, who said the union has to give concessions, or AA was going out of business??? Sure wasnt me, I know my post isnt what you want to hear, but its the truth.

You don't have to say it..you mentioned "LABOR". And once is all you have to mention it. The debate with DL/NWA and now UA/CO has always alluded to the fact that they were able to lower their costs via bankruptcy. And poor AA is all alone in the cold because they did not file for Chapter 11.

AA should file for bankruptcy, abbrogate all labor agreements and finally rid themselves of SCOPE.

 

[goodgirl37]

You don't have to say it..you mentioned "LABOR". And once is all you have to mention it. The debate with DL/NWA and now UA/CO has always alluded to the fact that they were able to lower their costs via bankruptcy. And poor AA is all alone in the cold because they did not file for Chapter 11.

AA should file for bankruptcy, abbrogate all labor agreements and finally rid themselves of SCOPE.

I don't think they should do that, Scope is extremely important, and I think labor should get back everything they gave up and more. But sadly, it is the truth that AA is now left w/o many options. The dance partners they have left for choice is US, and that wont give them what they need, it would be a disaster intergrating the two. It is like a game of chess, and AA is now faced with a very difficult situation, when nearly all of their competitors have teamed up, and already have ATI up and going for many years, and AA is just now getting the apprival for ATI with BA, and no merger partner. AA needs new management that is aggressive, I dont see that happening however. AA doesnt have the tools to expand where they need to, and quickly enough. It sucks that they are left a disadvantage for not filing BK and teaming up, but you have to have a forward thinking brain, and when all of your competitors are doing it, and you will have to compete, then hey, you have to do what you have to do. AA IMO, like many posters, were relying on the closure of UAL or US, or DAL NWA etc, and that didnt happen, the opposite happened, now they are faced with very difficult situations. They cant offer what the other 2 intl players can (UAL and DAL) and SWA will put a dent in everyones domestic revenue (moreso DAL) .. It will be an interesting next 2 years, and even if AA does file for BK, it wont be nearly as nice as the others went.

 

[eolesen]

AA should file for bankruptcy, abbrogate all labor agreements and finally rid themselves of SCOPE.

Next time AA is running cash-poor, I suspect you'll get your wish.

Crude prices are way down, but Jet-A is still collecting a bit of a premium. I'm also not convinced that the recession ended last year. It does look like the economy got propped up a bit between the Bush and Obama porkulus packages and the takeover/bailout of GM and Chrysler, but it's still sitting on top of a sinkhole called "the housing market" that's only getting deeper and deeper...

 

[Hopeful]

Next time AA is running cash-poor, I suspect you'll get your wish.

Crude prices are way down, but Jet-A is still collecting a bit of a premium. I'm also not convinced that the recession ended last year. It does look like the economy got propped up a bit between the Bush and Obama porkulus packages and the takeover/bailout of GM and Chrysler, but it's still sitting on top of a sinkhole called "the housing market" that's only getting deeper and deeper...

Then do it already. Stop the "Boy who cried wolf" too many time defense....Let them file bankruptcy, and they will be so far behind the eight ball, it wont matter all that much. I know a few people at United and USAir....morale is at its worst and people do no more than necessary.
AA can get its cost down but will not change its reputation and appeal to the consumer. Will not improve employee morale one bit.

My buddy at United says employees were already warned of major reductions in headcount.

And you are forgetting one little tidbit...
AA will not have to file bankruptcy because Jim Little would use his constitutional authority to overturn a rejected contract as he famously stated had the 2003 concessionary contract be rejected.

AA can lower their costs all they want, but it will not change the morale of its employees.
It would be like putting makeup on a pig!

 

[eolesen]

Honestly, Jim Little won't matter if it comes to the point of considering bankruptcy. Given the "success" of the 2003 effort, I doubt the company will waste their time with another "gun to the head" attempt as you guys put it to win concessions in advance.

They'll file, and let the S1113 process do what should have been done seven years ago. The threat of bankruptcy is far more real after the fact.

 

[Hopeful]

Honestly, Jim Little won't matter if it comes to the point of considering bankruptcy. Given the "success" of the 2003 effort, I doubt the company will waste their time with another "gun to the head" attempt as you guys put it to win concessions in advance.

They'll file, and let the S1113 process do what should have been done seven years ago. The threat of bankruptcy is far more real after the fact.

Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda!
Nice to hear you admit AA SHOULD have filed..Typical of pro management types who believe management should have autonomy and rule with iron fists to squash the trouble maker unions ithat plague our society and this nations recovery.
Then you would not have to worry about us pesky, greedy, unrealistic, lowly union workers as much as you do.
Then so be it.....Can't force better morale and work ethics on people who were economically and morally raped.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Then do it already. Stop the "Boy who cried wolf" too many time defense....Let them file bankruptcy, ... ... ...

As somebody who thought that not filing in 2003 was the correct thing for AMR to do, I can't belive I'm going to say that I agree with you.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

.....management should have autonomy and rule with iron fists to squash the trouble maker unions ithat plague our society and this nations recovery ...

Hear! Hear!

 

[Hopeful]

Hear! Hear!

Yea.....The best management team in the business!
You think there are morale problems now???????? WAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

We all saw how Eastern Airlines showed those evil unions!
Thats my vision, we shut down AA and all the other mega carriers will pick at AA's carcass eliminating another competitor.. Then they systematically keep raising fares on big shot business travellers like yourselves!

 

[eolesen]

Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda!
Nice to hear you admit AA SHOULD have filed..Typical of pro management types who believe management should have autonomy and rule with iron fists to squash the trouble maker unions ithat plague our society and this nations recovery.
Then you would not have to worry about us pesky, greedy, unrealistic, lowly union workers as much as you do.
Then so be it.....Can't force better morale and work ethics on people who were economically and morally raped.

Do I think that not filing bankruptcy was the right thing? Absolutely. You don't walk away from your obligations like that.

But that doesn't change the fact that a majority of your peers did so.

If four of your neighbors go into foreclosure, good luck selling your house for a fair market value, if you can sell it at all. It won't matter if you were the one working two jobs to pay your mortgage ontime, making improvements, and in general taking care of your property. Your house is going to be priced considerably lower because of your neighbors.

Not much different in airline-land. The irresponsible ones got a do-over, and were rewarded with lean cost structures and shredded workrules, while the guys who were responsible wind up at a disadvantage. And it's not just workrules. Remember the pension funding issues from a few years back? The guys who dumped their plans got rewarded with longer funding windows than the airlines who didn't dump their pensions...

Like it or not, ticket prices are going to be the same across the board for airlines, and how profitable you are depends entirely on how low or high your internal costs are.

This isn't like Apple and Microsoft, GM and BMW, or McDonalds and Outback Steakhouse. Air travel is a commodity to the masses. The few who chose based on product vs. price aren't going to be able to offset all of the cost imbalance.

 

[Hopeful]

Do I think that not filing bankruptcy was the right thing? Absolutely. You don't walk away from your obligations like that.

But that doesn't change the fact that a majority of your peers did so.

And there are those people who have actually applauded the move mainly because labor got screwed royally!

Just watch some of those right wing business shows. Not only do employees get screwed, so do vendors, customers and lenders.
In our society, this is a welcome move so "They Get to reorganize and have a fresh start!..

This is a nice way of saying they screwed people and other companies to get out of debt.

I will never subscribe to the view that management knows best and that there intentions are always well meaning. And if filing for bankruptcy allows them the legal right to screw others, so be it.
Eastern and Lorenzo did it.....Where are they now?
I can tell you that alot of employees from Eastern hired on with just about every other carrier.

For those who wish and hope for bankruptcy so AA's unions can finally "get theirs"....keep in mind that AA may fall harder than its peers..

The name AA can go the way of Eastern, PanAM, Braniff, TWA......remember them?

 

[Barfbag]

The name AA can go the way of Eastern, PanAM, Braniff, TWA......remember them?

AMR is not going to that Great Airline Grave in the sky anytime soon.

I do see us ( ARM ) as downsizing, and cherry picking routes as part of the Joint Business JB, ( also includes JetBlue ).

Passengers will be flying all over the world on AA coded flight numbers but our silver jets will be parked on the tarmac somewhere.

AMR wil do whatever it takes to keep the AA logo shining bright for years to come, even bankruptcy.

 

[goodgirl37]

AMR is not going to that Great Airline Grave in the sky anytime soon.

I do see us ( ARM ) as downsizing, and cherry picking routes as part of the Joint Business JB, ( also includes JetBlue ).

Passengers will be flying all over the world on AA coded flight numbers but our silver jets will be parked on the tarmac somewhere.

AMR wil do whatever it takes to keep the AA logo shining bright for years to come, even bankruptcy.

Unfortunately, if AMR was to file BK, it will not be the same as the others (UAL, US, NWA, DAL) . It is a different ballgame, and when you go into BK, you are not necessarily in control. AMR could be dismantled and assetts sold off to the highest bidder, US could initiate a takeover, with the sale of some of the assetts, many things could happen. AMR just didnt play their cards at the right time, in the right fashion.

 

[MCI transplant]

Unfortunately, if AMR was to file BK, it will not be the same as the others (UAL, US, NWA, DAL) . It is a different ballgame, and when you go into BK, you are not necessarily in control. AMR could be dismantled and assetts sold off to the highest bidder, US could initiate a takeover, with the sale of some of the assetts, many things could happen. AMR just didnt play their cards at the right time, in the right fashion.

:blink: --------- Hey! That sounds familiar!------ You mean the AA employees could get stapled? And Tulsa shout down!??? :huh: Lions, and tigers, and bears! Oh my!

 

[Barfbag]

you go into BK, you are not necessarily in control.

In a Pre-pack, all the control you need:

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/prepackagedbankruptcy.asp