Westjet To U.s. Cities

[SWAFA30]

Then again, when an airline gets into the TV business, it's not smart business to refuse to sell to a customer...any customer.

Think Neeleman would sell LiveTv to Southwest?

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

The other interesting thing about ("a-boot", LOL) the Canadian marketplace is that Charter Carriers/Vacation Packagers make up a larger percentage of the entire market than in the USA. Perhaps due to the relatively small population base and probably more distinct seasonality. They tend to offer great fares and go where pax want to go when they want to go... Air Transat and Skyservice come to mind. I know there have been several carriers in past as well. They generally provide service to sunspots in the winter and Europe in the summer, and usually have some domestic charters as well.

At any rate, these companies would also be competition to any transborder LCC.

Air Transat is still around. They're kind of boring in the sense that they stick only to charters (Europe in summer, sunny destinations in the winter) and do not try to buy other charter companies to get critical mass and go bankrupt in the process (i.e. Canada3000 purchase of Royal Aviation).

I'm not sure how Skyservice is doing these days, they may still be around. Skyservice tends to disappear in the summer time and then reappears in the winter. I think Skyservice fleet is mostly narrowbody aircraft like the A320 and hence they can't do Europe.

The Canadian charters do tend to offer decent fares at times, the major drawback is that one has to assume fetal position to fit into the seat.

On the plus side, occasionally one gets a free tour of the Azores when traveling AirTransat to Europe.

 

[funguy2]

I guess they must have mended fences. Doesn't Neeleman/jetBlue own the LiveTV product that WestJet is currently installing it their 73G fleet? I would think if there was still bad blood he would not have given them access to the technology.

I know nothing of any hard feelings between WestJet and Neeleman.

I do know that LiveTV was an independent system which sold service to JetBlue. They subsequently sold service to WestJet and Frontier before being acquired by JetBlue. JetBlue probably acquired LiveTV to ensure that their competitive advantage did not become emulated by the entire industry so quickly (which was obviously already happening). It seems to have worked because nobody else has a TV system up and running. Delta/Song has announced their intention to have one, but I believe it is not operational yet.

Thus JetBlue never sold LiveTV to anybody. Perhaps Neeleman's relationship with both carriers fostered the "outside the box" thinking which led each carrier to acquire the technology. However, WestJet acquired the LiveTV technology a few weeks (maybe even days) before JetBlue bought LiveTV.

 

[KCFlyer]

Think Neeleman would sell LiveTv to Southwest?

If they opened their checkbook, he sure would. As I said...an airline that starts buying businesses had better be ready to welcome all buyers...Before long, those vaunted cash reserves are going to start shrinking...and he'd better sell as many TV sets as he can to whoever wants to buy them.

Sort of like McDonalds selling playground sets...they use them in their business, but they really aren't in the playground equipment business. When the bottom line starts to suffer, they either have to sell the playground equipment business or think about selling some playground equipment to burger king.

 

[SWAFA30]

If they opened their checkbook, he sure would. As I said...an airline that starts buying businesses had better be ready to welcome all buyers...Before long, those vaunted cash reserves are going to start shrinking...and he'd better sell as many TV sets as he can to whoever wants to buy them.

Sort of like McDonalds selling playground sets...they use them in their business, but they really aren't in the playground equipment business. When the bottom line starts to suffer, they either have to sell the playground equipment business or think about selling some playground equipment to burger king.

I don't know KC. Right now assigned seats and LiveTV are jetBlue's main competitive advantage over Southwest. Whenever I am discussing the two companies with anyone at some point the other person invariably says..."Yeah but jetBlue has TV". With the exception of Metro New York and maybe Denver, WN's route structure is far superior. If WN added LiveTV would it even be a fair fight anymore? I could be wrong but, something tells Neeleman might think twice.

 

[KCFlyer]

If they opened their checkbook, he sure would. As I said...an airline that starts buying businesses had better be ready to welcome all buyers...Before long, those vaunted cash reserves are going to start shrinking...and he'd better sell as many TV sets as he can to whoever wants to buy them.

Sort of like McDonalds selling playground sets...they use them in their business, but they really aren't in the playground equipment business. When the bottom line starts to suffer, they either have to sell the playground equipment business or think about selling some playground equipment to burger king.

I don't know KC. Right now assigned seats and LiveTV are jetBlue's main competitive advantage over Southwest. Whenever I am discussing the two companies with anyone at some point the other person invariably says..."Yeah but jetBlue has TV". With the exception of Metro New York and maybe Denver, WN's route structure is far superior. If WN added LiveTV would it even be a fair fight anymore? I could be wrong but, something tells Neeleman might think twice.

I'm still of the opinion that the TV sets are going to come back and bite them in the butt. Tray tables have a heckuva time surviving day to day use, I wonder how long sensitive electronics can take a beating. So...maintenance costs on the TV's will increase...on something that has nothing to do with keeping the plane in the air. Add to that the inevitable letters to the company about "My TV didn't work on my flight to Florida", and the companies response most likely will be some sort of voucher...for a problem that had diddly squat to do with getting that person from point A to point B. When your margins are so low every voucher hurts. Then the folks like me who have some kind of heebie jeebies about a bunch of wires in the seats causing a fire on board.

But....when I see every other airline trying to get their costs down or keep their costs down, I see JetBlue aggressively working towards increasing their costs - second aircraft type, massive order for new planes for "new cities" (which will cost money to start up) to offer one thing that they currently lack - frequency, announcing plans to serve a second airport in their biggest "hub" city. Combine those with the costs of increased maintenance, the increase in labor costs (they will go up), increases in fuel prices to name a few - and pretty soon their biggest advantage (even bigger than TV's in every seat) - lower costs than their competitors - will shrink so that the gap is negligible. Then they'll have customers having to decide "Do I want to take a redeye with a TV set, or a flight that gets me home in time to see my kids on another airline". Sure, they'll have some who just can't miss the latest rerun of "Survivor" opting for their flight. The big difference is that the folks who opted for the competitions flights are flying on an airline that has a cost structure dangerously (for JetBlue) close to their own costs. That means that the competition is no longer bleeding money. Heck, I have no doubt that they will once again become profitable.

So...being a stockholder in Southwest, I'd much rather spend any TV money to give the flight attendants a good raise. because IMHO, service, rather that a TV set, is what will keep customers coming back.

 

[SWAFA30]

I'm still of the opinion that the TV sets are going to come back and bite them in the butt. Tray tables have a heckuva time surviving day to day use, I wonder how long sensitive electronics can take a beating. So...maintenance costs on the TV's will increase...on something that has nothing to do with keeping the plane in the air. Add to that the inevitable letters to the company about "My TV didn't work on my flight to Florida", and the companies response most likely will be some sort of voucher...for a problem that had diddly squat to do with getting that person from point A to point B. When your margins are so low every voucher hurts. Then the folks like me who have some kind of heebie jeebies about a bunch of wires in the seats causing a fire on board.

But....when I see every other airline trying to get their costs down or keep their costs down, I see JetBlue aggressively working towards increasing their costs - second aircraft type, massive order for new planes for "new cities" (which will cost money to start up) to offer one thing that they currently lack - frequency, announcing plans to serve a second airport in their biggest "hub" city. Combine those with the costs of increased maintenance, the increase in labor costs (they will go up), increases in fuel prices to name a few - and pretty soon their biggest advantage (even bigger than TV's in every seat) - lower costs than their competitors - will shrink so that the gap is negligible. Then they'll have customers having to decide "Do I want to take a redeye with a TV set, or a flight that gets me home in time to see my kids on another airline". Sure, they'll have some who just can't miss the latest rerun of "Survivor" opting for their flight. The big difference is that the folks who opted for the competitions flights are flying on an airline that has a cost structure dangerously (for JetBlue) close to their own costs. That means that the competition is no longer bleeding money. Heck, I have no doubt that they will once again become profitable.

So...being a stockholder in Southwest, I'd much rather spend any TV money to give the flight attendants a good raise. because IMHO, service, rather that a TV set, is what will keep customers coming back.

Obviously JP et al agree with you. Thus far they have resisted the urge to jump on the IFE bandwagon. They seem to be hesitant to shell out massive amounts of money for a "frill" that could end up either being the "flavor the month" or ultimately irrelevant in impacting WN's ability to attract/retain customers.

However, the question that was on the table was....Should by some great miracle JP decides to crack open the $2,000,000,000 piggy bank and retrofit the fleet with TEE-VEEs...and it was decided that it was either Neeleman's LiveTV or nothing...Would Neeleman sell it to us. Take a moment and think. It is 5 years down the road. Despite their best and most heroic efforts, US has taken their place in the pantheon of Great Airlines that once were. There is slugfest of epic proportions underway for LCC dominance over the cash cow that is the East Coast. The B6 EMB-190s are on the property, the route structure is growing and the long awaited, highly anticipated B6/WN face-off is about to happen. They have avoided each other for as long as possible it's time for the "big dance". The WN product has been tweaked til there is no tweaking left to be done. The planes are all Canyon Blue, the Leather Seats have been installed but the FF survey results are in, the masses want their MTV and they want it now. JP, HK, and CB are sitting in the B6 executive suite, hat in hand essentially admitting that the B6 product has WN on the ropes...and they need PTVs to compete....Would Neeleman sell?

 

[KCFlyer]

Obviously JP et al agree with you. Thus far they have resisted the urge to jump on the IFE bandwagon. They seem to be hesitant to shell out massive amounts of money for a "frill" that could end up either being the "flavor the month" or ultimately irrelevant in impacting WN's ability to attract/retain customers.

However, the question that was on the table was....Should by some great miracle JP decides to crack open the $2,000,000,000 piggy bank and retrofit the fleet with TEE-VEEs...and it was decided that it was either Neeleman's LiveTV or nothing...Would Neeleman sell it to us. Take a moment and think. It is 5 years down the road. Despite their best and most heroic efforts, US has taken their place in the pantheon of Great Airlines that once were. There is slugfest of epic proportions underway for LCC dominance over the cash cow that is the East Coast. The B6 EMB-190s are on the property, the route structure is growing and the long awaited, highly anticipated B6/WN face-off is about to happen. They have avoided each other for as long as possible it's time for the "big dance". The WN product has been tweaked til there is no tweaking left to be done. The planes are all Canyon Blue, the Leather Seats have been installed but the FF survey results are in, the masses want their MTV and they want it now. JP, HK, and CB are sitting in the B6 executive suite, hat in hand essentially admitting that the B6 product has WN on the ropes...and they need PTVs to compete....Would Neeleman sell?

Well...first off, I really don't want to see US fade away. But should that happen, most of US's routes in the north east are pretty much short haul. Is TV a necessity between PHL and IAD? And there is one airline which understands the short haul market very well...and they don't have TV sets. And they also are the pros when it comes to hourly flights between PHL and BWI (Washington DC). Would the boys with the TV sets and the highly touted (on Wall Street) 85% load factor be willing to operate super frequent service between PHL and IAD for example, and risk some loads in the low 40% range? In other words - would they be willing to let their stock take a hit because of the nature of high frequency flights on load factors? Which then makes me wonder - if they don't and only offer a handful of flights, will passengers be willing to forgo watching "Real World" on MTV and take a flight that gets them where they want to be sooner?

And the other airline has TV sets but to try to "capture" a predominantly short haul market would do what to their ASM costs? Drive them up. Right about the time they start taking delivery of the second aircraft type. Right about the time that the Airbi are due for heavy checks...in other words, right about the time that they can't afford the increased costs of starting new service...SHORT HAUL service. Piled on with all the other incremental cost increases. Heck...my guess is that if US fails and JetBlue tries to swoop in and take over the network that US has in place, Neeleman might not only opt to sell TV sets to Herb and Collen, but he just might see if Time Warner would be interested in taking the TV business off his hands.

 

[SWAFA30]

KC,

You certainly took the scenic route but, you did answer my question. I think.

Thanks!

 

[hmvrep]

WestJet is installing the TVs in the 700s only. They are NOT charging for the headsets, we give them away. Nor do we charge for the TV.

WestJet has assigned seating, always has.

TVs will be going in late Feb, early March, last rumblings. WestJet is installing SATCOM, now as well as winglets on all 700's.

The move from Hamilton to YYZ was not because of Pax loads, the deadheading back and forth from Hamilton to YYZ was costing a hockey sock full of money!

The relationship between JetBlue and WestJet has always been amicable. Mr. Neeleman left WestJet of his own accord AFTER his agreement had been fulfilled.

As for frquency of routes, and whether or not the routes in and out of the SouthLand are for Snobirds only, I can't remember. I'll check tomorrow when I can access the news release.

Anyway, nice to see that our airline has caused enough of a stir to be valued as a discussion topic on here!

Oh, we don't say Aboot, that's just what you think you hear!! . And we don't say HUH?? :down: Yes we say EH. It a more versatile word, can be used as a verb, an adjective, a noun. Plus, it sounds much better that HUH!

Keep ye stick on the ice!! LOL