White Male Club

[Ms Tree]

 
Indeed. You mentioned the "Red Tails", clearly without knowing anything about them. The example you would have us believe to be successful social engineering was merely that of continuing to have racially segregated units, which had been done as far back as the rather un-"Civil" War. Your very example, however unknowingly to you, would argue for, rather than against the continuance of such prejudice. I approve of no such discrimination based on anyone's skin hues myself, but that's another matter. You've yet to advance any argument that supports the idea that social experimentation via gays and women in any way enhances military effectiveness, while countless examples are available showing the problems and issues that've already arisen.You've used Israel as the best example for integrating females into combat arms, but are apparently unaware that the majority of those young ladies that are directly in combat positions are assigned to a single unit, and not-so-much distributed wholesale throughout their forces...? Why doesn't even Israel just assign them to each and every frontline combat unit? Do the Israelis, I mean just perhaps, know something you don't?
 
"Karakal is a special battalion (gdud) inside the realm of Chir that is comprised of both women and men, both of which do all of the training together and exercises/guarding which is required. It is a unit that is full capacity combat and mainly is stationed in the south at the Egyptian border and the Jordanian border."
 
http://www.idfinfo.co.il/Service_Options_For_Women.php?cat=a7
 
For myself; I just want the strongest and most capable military for the nation that we can field. Show me how your notions help do anything of the sort. Whether the makeup of our forces suits my or anyone's personal wishes or agendas should be of no rational concern to any of us. Whether our forces are the best we can have, or not, certainly should concern us all.

Why on earth would you think I would bring up the Red Tails as a argument for segregation when I have been aruing this entire time against it?  I am not the one seeking to return to the days of yore and the 'traditional' militarty.  That would be your argument.  I brought up the Red Tails because they were a successfull example (much to the chagrin of many at that time) of a minority experiment and it help a great deal to expose the argument that blacks were not as capable as white as a fraud.  The WASPS were another example.
 
I guess it's a good thing that no one listened to people like you when the US military started to allow blacks to serve along white. 
 
I have never argueed that women are to be treated identically to men in so far as the military in concerened.  I have argued that people should be accepted and assigned to possitions based on their capability, not their gender, race or sexual orientation.

 

[Ms Tree]

I thought this was an interesting article.
 
Forgien Policy

 

[EastUS1]

I have never argueed that women are to be treated identically to men in so far as the military in concerened.

 
What specific privileges or restrictions do you then suggest?

 

[EastUS1]

I thought this was an interesting article.
 
Forgien Policy

 
It was indeed. "144 American women have been killed and 865 wounded in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001" Yeah...While any decent man "might" just find that sickening, no matter. Let's have another resounding cheer for America's political correctness!

 

[Ms Tree]

 
What specific privileges or restrictions do you then suggest?

 
 

 I have argued that people should be accepted and assigned to possitions based on their capability, not their gender, race or sexual orientation.

 

[Ms Tree]

 
It was indeed. "144 American women have been killed and 865 wounded in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001" Yeah...While any decent man "might" just find that sickening, no matter. Let's have another resounding cheer for America's political correctness!

How many men were killed?  The women joined the military with the same knowledge that the men did.  They knew their lives could be lost.  I fail to see how this has anything to do with political correctness.  Who are you to tell a woman who is a skilled pilot or marksman that she cannot fight?  You think it's your job to protect the 'little lady'.  Well that's your problem.  I know quite a few women who would tell you to take your 'duty to protect her' and shove it where the sun does not shine. 
 
A decent man would find the loss of all life sickening, only a sexist would only be sickened by the female loss of life.
 
I have no pity for the women who died in service any more than I do for the men who did.  They died serving their country.  I suspect they joined because they wanted to serve.  I have nothing but admiration for them.  I suspect that were any of them to able to talk to you they would tell you to take your PC BS and stick it.  
 
Glad to see you are keeping misogyny alive and well.  Thankfully your generation is being replaced by those who see people as equals regardless of gender or race or sexual orientation.  

 

[Ms Tree]

I have to ask.  Female law enforcement is bad too?  How about female pilots?  What jobs should females be allowed to do?  How much risk is acceptable for you?

 

[EastUS1]

Glad to see you are keeping misogyny alive and well.  Thankfully your generation is being replaced by those who see people as equals regardless of gender or race or sexual orientation.  

 
I'm equally "glad" to see that you're maintaining the sterotypically mindless ravings so well known from the "liberal" community in general, without inserting, as is likewise expected, even the slightest actual thought. I've known and still fly with some excellent female pilots, and have served with a few that were fine Officers as well. Heck, I've even flown at the same base that then LT Eileen Collins, later to be the first lady to command a space shuttle was then at. None of this addresses the points at hand. As one who was in an immediate position to see: I've also observed often hugely different training standards for women (and some minorities along the way). You haven't. Such things caused the most capable ones unfair distress, as it left many at receiving units to assume that when one reported, that perhaps sub-standard trouble just walked through the door, so the good ones suffered unduly as well. For the ones who'd "benefitted" from eased training standards? Their squadrons suffered.
 
"Thankfully your generation is being replaced" Hey! Watch the prejudice against your elders kid! Should those senior to you be in any way discriminated against?...Or just those you disagree with? "Thankfully" perhaps in your "mind", so was the Tuskegee Airmen's generation replaced...to all our loss, I'll add.
 
You perhaps DO realize, at least at some level, that you've yet to advance so much as a single piece of evidence that supports your ideas of social experimentation being anything that actually enhances, versus detracts from military effectiveness? All you've offered is the idiotic notion that everyone should have a "right", versus a Duty to serve...and who am I to deny anyone the chance to be blown to bits, even though you conveniently opted out of accepting such a "right" yourself. "How much risk is acceptable for you?" Apparently little to even zero in your case, but do keep championing the "right" of others to die for you.
 
Show us all how your ideas make for a better fighting force, if you can. Otherwise...whine away and pout all you like.

 

[Ms Tree]

Never said anything about discriminating against seniors so try and stay focused and stop making things up.  Just said that your out dated POV is dying off.  
 
I think it's a very good thing that the WWII generation is over with.  While they were very good at the time, as with most people, they fail to advance with the time.  The WWII generation were the ones who, along with their progeny fought against civil rights and integration.  Just as your generation as a whole is fighting change.
 
I'll try once more.  he Red Tails was a social experiment conducted by whites in the hopes of showing that blacks were not capable of flying in combat.  The Red Tails proved the establishment wrong and they did it with the deck stacked against them.  I think that this was a very successful social experiment unless you are now saying that the Red Tails did nothing to help the war effort.
 
Secondly I did not opt out I was disqualified based on medical issues.  I really do not understand your penchant for making things up to support your arguments.  If you do not have anything to support your POV, then just go with that.  Making up lies is not working for you.
 
Do you believe women should be allowed in law enforcement?

 

[EastUS1]

I'll try once more.  he Red Tails was a social experiment conducted by whites in the hopes of showing that blacks were not capable of flying in combat. 

 
I've rarely read such an openly blatant expression of wholesale ignorance and/or just complete stupidity. With the Nation in virtual death grips with not one, but two seriously dangerous foes; do you/CAN you even imagine that those mean ole' whiteys in Washington were all about spending many more millions, and allocating precious training and fighting resources, all just to demonstrate their prejudices? Seriously? Are you just frikkin' INSANE? Are you even at all aware that Eleanor Roosevelt herself was a big supporter? Do you imagine FDR was hoping for the program to fail?
 
Ms Tree: "I think it's a very good thing that the WWII generation is over with." You would. They were/are not the sorts that'd buy your candy-azzed BS. While your narcicissm's overflowing with what a "good thing" it is "that the WWII generation is over with", you might want to at least momentarily pause to thank them for surviving the great depression, defeating Germany, Italy and Japan, keeping the Soviet union at bay, and giving you the chance to live in a mostly safe country that'll indulge your contemptible, smarmy arrogance.
 
PS: Ms Tree "Secondly I did not opt out I was disqualified based on medical issues." Those must've been some truly considerable issues then, since a great many conditions allow for waivers to be given, depending on the applicant.  Did you even consider such? No matter now, and I suppose we can all just go forward listening to your vast, personal expertise on how all things military should go, who should fight and perhaps perish, etc. I've gotta' ask though; since you're such a big believer in giving everyone the "right" to place themselves in harm's way: WTF have you ever done to afford you even the slightest reasonable capability for forming any judgment there?

 

[delldude]

It's all entertaining for a bit and then it just becomes tedious.  You ask for an example of social engineering in the armed forces so I mention the Red Tails.  Then you go off on some wild tangent about a Hollywood movie, Obama and race.  Completely unrelated to what was being discussed.  

 
Tuskegee Airmen wasn't about social engineering at all. It was about racial acceptance and prevailing attitudes.
 
If it truly was social engineering, black and whites would have done basic and advanced training together and fought and served together. Engineered from the start, not the seventh inning.

 

[Ms Tree]

 
I've rarely read such an openly blatant expression of wholesale ignorance and/or just complete stupidity. With the Nation in virtual death grips with not one, but two seriously dangerous foes; do you/CAN you even imagine that those mean ole' whiteys in Washington were all about spending many more millions, and allocating precious training and fighting resources, all just to demonstrate their prejudices? Seriously? Are you just frikkin' INSANE? Are you even at all aware that Eleanor Roosevelt herself was a big supporter? Do you imagine FDR was hoping for the program to fail?
 
Ms Tree: "I think it's a very good thing that the WWII generation is over with." You would. They were/are not the sorts that'd buy your candy-azzed BS. While your narcicissm's overflowing with what a "good thing" it is "that the WWII generation is over with", you might want to at least momentarily pause to thank them for surviving the great depression, defeating Germany, Italy and Japan, keeping the Soviet union at bay, and giving you the chance to live in a mostly safe country that'll indulge your contemptible, smarmy arrogance.
 
PS: Ms Tree "Secondly I did not opt out I was disqualified based on medical issues." Those must've been some truly considerable issues then, since a great many conditions allow for waivers to be given, depending on the applicant.  Did you even consider such? No matter now, and I suppose we can all just go forward listening to your vast, personal expertise on how all things military should go, who should fight and perhaps perish, etc. I've gotta' ask though; since you're such a big believer in giving everyone the "right" to place themselves in harm's way: WTF have you ever done to afford you even the slightest reasonable capability for forming any judgment there?

Well if you knew as much as you thought you did you would know that the Alabama base was created as a result of a law suit by Yancey Williams and the NAACP.  The NAACP wanted full integration but the Army saw fit to keep it segregated.  It was an experiment that was supposed to fail.  The fact that Ms Roosevelt was instrumental in getting them going should be a indicator that some folks were against it.  FDR did not want it, he had to be convinced.  Was Commander Davis welcomed with open arms by his fighter group in Europe or did someone have to intervene to prevent the Red Tails from being shipped back state side?
 
The experiment was never supposed to go as far as it did.  The 'Negros' were supposed to fail out in the beginning and just fade away.  Fortunately they succeed and the investment was made to keep them going
 
Again with your misquotes.  What is your problem?

 

 
I think it's a very good thing that the WWII generation is over with.  While they were very good at the time, as with most people, they fail to advance with the time.  The WWII generation were the ones who, along with their progeny fought against civil rights and integration.  Just as your generation as a whole is fighting change.
 

 
Yes I did and no it was not something that could be waived.  
 
The logic that only those who have experience in "x" can comment is old and tiresome.  People who had never been to space created programs for going to space.  I'm a citizen and as such am allowed to have an opinion on any damn thing I want.  Whether or not you agree with said opinion is not relevant in the slightest.  Whether or not I have done anything warranting an opinion in your eyes is immaterial to the fact that others should be allowed to defend their nation.
 
And you still have not answered the question as to whether or not women should be allowed in law enforcement.  

 

[delldude]

Well if you knew as much as you thought you did you would know that the Alabama base was created as a result of a law suit by Yancey Williams and the NAACP.  The NAACP wanted full integration but the Army saw fit to keep it segregated.  It was an experiment that was supposed to fail.  The fact that Ms Roosevelt was instrumental in getting them going should be a indicator that some folks were against it.  FDR did not want it, he had to be convinced.  Was Commander Davis welcomed with open arms by his fighter group in Europe or did someone have to intervene to prevent the Red Tails from being shipped back state side?
 
The experiment was never supposed to go as far as it did.  The 'Negros' were supposed to fail out in the beginning and just fade away.  Fortunately they succeed and the investment was made to keep them going
 
Again with your misquotes.  What is your problem?

 

 
Yes I did and no it was not something that could be waived.  
 
The logic that only those who have experience in "x" can comment is old and tiresome.  People who had never been to space created programs for going to space.  I'm a citizen and as such am allowed to have an opinion on any damn thing I want.  Whether or not you agree with said opinion is not relevant in the slightest.  Whether or not I have done anything warranting an opinion in your eyes is immaterial to the fact that others should be allowed to defend their nation.
 
And you still have not answered the question as to whether or not women should be allowed in law enforcement.  

 
Still wrong about it being social engineering.
 
Forcing blacks and whites to be together is integration.
 
Social engineering is blacks and whites living and growing together in the same neighborhoods and on throughout life.

 

[Ms Tree]

 
Minus 13 on this post, I think that's a new record.

 
Given the make up of this board I'm surprised it is not higher.

 

[Ms Tree]

 I've gotta' ask though; since you're such a big believer in giving everyone the "right" to place themselves in harm's way: WTF have you ever done to afford you even the slightest reasonable capability for forming any judgment there?

 
Does this mean men cannot coment or make decisions about womens rights?  How about straights regarding gay rights?  Shall this apply to all aspects of our life or just the ones you desginate?  Sports?  Insurance?  Medicine?  Where do you draw your arbitrary line?