why Herb's crew is different.....

[whatkindoffreshhell]

(WSJ 01.17.06)

IAD-DTW fare when Independence & UA were competing: $199

IAD-DTW fare on UA after Indy folds: $1090

Some folks never change, eh?

 

[Fly]

Really?!? I just went to UAL.com and typed in IAD/DTW ROUND TRIP and got a ticket for $149.60 (Jan 21 depart/jan 24 return). Did I mention that is ROUNDTRIP???? Found the comparable to WN on same times and days but they are $356.20. Oh well, guess you are wrong again.

 

[KCFlyer]

Really?!? I just went to UAL.com and typed in IAD/DTW ROUND TRIP and got a ticket for $149.60 (Jan 21 depart/jan 24 return). Did I mention that is ROUNDTRIP???? Found the comparable to WN on same times and days but they are $356.20. Oh well, guess you are wrong again.

True enough, it's there. But there was this little thing I noticed:

TICKET IS NON-REFUNDABLE.
NOTE -
TICKET HAS NO VALUE UNLESS PASSENGER CANCELS
TICKETED FLIGHT RESERVATIONS ON/BEFORE THE
ORIGINAL TICKETED DEPARTURE DATE.
CHANGES
CHARGE USD 100.00 FOR REISSUE/UNTICKETED PTA.

And that's if you don't need to travel tomorrow. If you do, the fare is surprisingly close to Southwest's fare, with the exception that even that fare is non-refundable and subject to a $100 change fee. The Southwest fare, while non refundable, is only $10 cheaper than a fully refundable ticket. So should someone need to make a change, it'll cost them $100 on United and $10 on Southwest.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

(sigh...)

Okay, the last-minute-web-deals-everything-must-go fare on UA is sweet.

So is the upcoming $10bil paper profit.

You miss my point.

Don't play games with your customers.

Suppose that won't change long as Jake is still around. His mere presence on 'the property' after a reign during which most CFOs would have committed hari-kari is proof enough.

 

[Fly]

Why is charging a change fee playing games? Do you think United is the only one doing it?

Just for giggles I pulled up fares for both airlines for Feb 1 returning on Feb 8. Guess what, United is cheaper again. (using the cheapest SW fare I could find, you know the non-refundable one) $226.40 vs $246.40!

I'm just pointing out that your intentional slam against United doesn't stick. But I'm sure you'll keep trying to think up ways to make us look bad. Luckily I'm here to prove you wrong....again. Will you admit that you made up this thread as nothing more than a flame?? How about sticking this post right back up where you got it?

 

[KCFlyer]

Why is charging a change fee playing games? Do you think United is the only one doing it?

Just for giggles I pulled up fares for both airlines for Feb 1 returning on Feb 8. Guess what, United is cheaper again. (using the cheapest SW fare I could find, you know the non-refundable one) $226.40 vs $246.40!

I'm just pointing out that your intentional slam against United doesn't stick. But I'm sure you'll keep trying to think up ways to make us look bad. Luckily I'm here to prove you wrong....again. Will you admit that you made up this thread as nothing more than a flame?? How about sticking this post right back up where you got it?

I guess the "game" is this Fly...Let's say you and your kid buy those tickets. But on Feb 7, your kid gets an ear infection...no flying until the 10th. On Southwest, you pay $64, which is the upcharge to the full one way fare. On United you pay a $100 change fee, plus any additional upcharge.

When I used to travel on business on a weekly basis, we were never quite sure if we'd be coming home Friday, or if we might catch a late flight Thursday afternoon. My company thought it was mighty nice that they didn't have to pay a change fee on top of a fare increase to bring me home Thursday. So I guess, with low fares, it ain't always "what you see is what you get".

Better than that...let's say you can't leave on the original flight on Feb 1, and I had the flights specifically to see an event on Feb 3 in Detroit. By the time I can go, the event's over, and I have no need to go to Detroit. Not a problem, from that $226 ticket, I'll have $126 that I can use for myself only. On Southwest, I'll have the full $246...and if my wife needs to travel, I can use those funds to buy HER ticket. That's flexibility. The other guys are just playing games.

 

[magsau]

I guess the "game" is this Fly...Let's say you and your kid buy those tickets. But on Feb 7, your kid gets an ear infection...no flying until the 10th.

So a company should lose money because you kid gets a cold? You are a real piece of work. Where do I send the welfare check :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:

If you buy UA and travel when you plan the fare is cheaper than LUV. UA is carrying 80%+LF so some people are meeting those dept. dates and getting a decent price for their trouble. For you and your sick kids perhaps you should travel with the red cross.

 

[KCFlyer]

So a company should lose money because you kid gets a cold? You are a real piece of work. Where do I send the welfare check :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:

If you buy UA and travel when you plan the fare is cheaper than LUV. UA is carrying 80%+LF so some people are meeting those dept. dates and getting a decent price for their trouble. For you and your sick kids perhaps you should travel with the red cross.

Mags....as the parent of that child...if I am bent over for $100 plus a fare differential on United, and am out $64 for the fare differential on Southwest...who am I more likely to fly next time? More importantly...what will that "future" customer (my child) be taught?

As Piney said...I'll take a 70% load factor and a profit over an 80+% load factor and a loss any day of the week. You are the piece of work, you mighty skygod you.

 

[magsau]

80% Load factors and as of this minute still losing money.

SWA high 60's to low 70's load factor, better flexibility, and they run to the bank.

So who is smarter. In business your P & L is like your kids report cards. SO tell me who's been getting A's and who's been getting F's??????

What would LUV's profit be without hedging? So you tell me Magellan how do you navigate profits.

If you can not read a financial report and see the paper losses versus money out the door then I can not hold your hand and teach you.

You now want it both ways. You bemoan UAL for having expensive walk-up fares yet you criticize them for charging too little? You can not have it both ways. As for LUV's cheap tickets you can look at flights close to dept. and notice not very many cheap seats on the LUV flights.

Hopefully AA can drive them back to the stone age when they show up at DAL. May the WRIGHT decision be made.

 

[lostplanetairman]

Just for giggles I pulled up fares for both airlines for Feb 1 returning on Feb 8. Guess what, United is cheaper again. (using the cheapest SW fare I could find, you know the non-refundable one) $226.40 vs $246.40!

NWA was doing the same price gouging. For the same dates now, Spirit from DCA to DTW is $210.40 round trip. The trip used to be in the $400 range when NWA had the monopoly. Now it's interesting that on the times that compete with Spirit, they are close ($220 range). But on the other times, they bumped it up--a lot--$300 or $376 are the two choices.

 

[KCFlyer]

What would LUV's profit be without hedging? So you tell me Magellan how do you navigate profits.

If you can not read a financial report and see the paper losses versus money out the door then I can not hold your hand and teach you.

You now want it both ways. You bemoan UAL for having expensive walk-up fares yet you criticize them for charging too little? You can not have it both ways. As for LUV's cheap tickets you can look at flights close to dept. and notice not very many cheap seats on the LUV flights.

Hopefully AA can drive them back to the stone age when they show up at DAL. May the WRIGHT decision be made.

mags...I know you are a skygod and know all that there is to know about things in the sky. But you really ought to buy a ticket sometime instead of non-reving...those "high" fares close to departure on Southwest are fully refundable and fully changeable. Why not price that IAD-DTW fare on United and select "economy - no restrictions" and tell me what a great deal I'm getting.

 

[x15]

>>>>What would LUV's profit be without hedging? <<<<

Unknown to some, but this is a more complicated question than you think. SWA's fares are much lower than they otherwise would be if they didn't have fuel hedging. They are taking advantage of their fortunate fuel hedging position to charge relatively low fares and establish themselves solidly in their markets, including some new ones. If SWA did NOT have their fuel hedging, many people think they would be charging higher fares and would still be quite profitable, though having a little less easy time establishing and solidifying their markets against their competition.

 

[Fly]

I see that you all want to avoid the original intent of this thread. 😱ff:

But what all you anti-United people won't acknowledge now is that this thread is total BS!!! As I've pointed out, he made up those $1000 fares and just tried to make UAL look as though they are price gouging when in fact, they are cheaper than SW in both cases I found.

So who is price gouging???? It isn't United (even with FlyI gone) This thread should be closed simply because it was false and nothing more than a flame attempt.

 

[Ch. 12]

Let's revisit fuel hedges:
WN did not win a sweepstakes and have hedges fall in their lap. They are an excellent business with enough forsight to hedge fuel and mitigate their risk. What so many fail to mention is how much WN has lost (i.e. purchased futures that ended up being above market.) Look at their financials and you will see. So they make a business decision to protect themselves should a fuel crisis occur and the other carriers rest on their laurels that fuel can't possibly go high enough for hedges to pay off. Which is smarter? And why point this out everytime when, in fact, all other carriers should have at least thought about employing the same tactics.

Load Factors you say?:
Well...true that UA is nearly 20 pts higher than WN but WN's is a record LF from what they claim so kudos to them for being so successfull. I'd rather have a break even LF less than 70% than have one over 100%. I won't give you the answer but I will tell you that one is much easier to attain than the other...

UA's "paper" losses:
Financials can be skewed in so many ways. Point is that UA has a liquidity issue...and has for over three years. This is a liguidity issue so complex that they are just now realizing how to attempt to overcome it at least in the short term. You can call them "paper losses" but in reality they must be a little severe b/c a company that feels that it no longer has cash to maintain operations is losing alot more than just "paper". Trust me...I work for one of those carriers. I do wish UAL the best but let's have some concept of reality, Mags.

Fly- These are not directed to you as I think you have a rational concept of what is going on at your carrier and as I've told you before...I truly hope that the bears are right about UAL's emergence.

 

[KCFlyer]

I see that you all want to avoid the original intent of this thread. 😱ff:

But what all you anti-United people won't acknowledge now is that this thread is total BS!!! As I've pointed out, he made up those $1000 fares and just tried to make UAL look as though they are price gouging when in fact, they are cheaper than SW in both cases I found.

So who is price gouging???? It isn't United (even with FlyI gone) This thread should be closed simply because it was false and nothing more than a flame attempt.

Fly...no he wasn't making them up. Go back to UAL.com, select "more options" and price the "economy - no restrictions" ticket. The question then becomes...if you are going to offer restricted fares that are about the same price as Southwest's, what's keeping you from reducing your unrestricted fares?

Also, I find it a bit ironic that just a few short years ago, SWA was blasted for being the reason the legacy employees had to take pay cut after pay cut. Today, I sense a certain pride in undercutting SWA prices. People ask..."What will Southwest do when their hedges run out"...I submit they will raise prices a bit to offset them. But the amount they raise them will be less than what the legacies raise, since you have "proven" that Southwest doesn't offer the lowest fares in a market. I think it'll be easier for John Q Public to swallow a $10 fare increase instead of a $50+ increase. If Southwest raises prices to a point where they make a profit, even without fuel hedges, how long will the legacies continue the strategy of pricing below them? Especially if those fares eat into the profits?

This one is for mags...it was on a consumer advocates message board.

I had to purchase an airline ticket for my son and daughter from United because I was involved in a custody case. I didn't know if the Judge was going to rule in my favor but I had to be prepared to bring them home if I was awarded custody. Long story short... I was awarded custody of my son and a continuance for my daughter. I called United to make the changes to my travel plans. I explained the situation to the agent. She stated I would be charged the $100 fee to change my travel plans and a credit would be issued for the difference. Fast forward a couple months. I decided to use the credit for my travel plans. United stated I couldn't use the credit because it was for my daughters travel. I tried explaining my daughter was a minor and I had paid for the ticket with my credit card. They wouldn't budge. I sent two letters and I got the same result. Pack sand... My ticket expires in March 2006. Any suggestions?

I realize that this person is most likely the type of customer you don't want, since they involve those pesky kids. Imagine someone who dares use a credit for a ticket he bought to purchase future travel for someone else. Heck...he didn't even complain about the $100 change fee - he just wanted to use the balance to buy a ticket for himself instead of his daughter. But what does he know...he's just a lowly customer.