Will United Get The Loan
- Thread starter Fly
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"the ATSB could have given them the loan back in 2002."
Well, based on the plan they submitted, be happy they did not get the loan, you would probably be looking at a UAir scenario about now.
If nothing else, the ATSB was wise in deferring the loan, the plan looks somewhat more viable this time around.
Well, based on the plan they submitted, be happy they did not get the loan, you would probably be looking at a UAir scenario about now.
If nothing else, the ATSB was wise in deferring the loan, the plan looks somewhat more viable this time around.
Taxpayer group urges ATSB to deny United bailout
The Council for Citizens Against Government Waste (CCAGW) urged the Air Transportation Stabilization Board (ATSB) to deny United Airlines' (UA) request for a $1.6 billion federally backed loan guarantee. The taxpayer group said UA has not established a sound business plan, and taxpayers should not be responsible for covering the cost of the loan should the airline default.
"United is telling the ATSB it is ready to emerge from bankruptcy and just needs a little help, like a $1.6 billion loan, to get back on its feet," CCAGW President Tom Schatz said.
UA was denied an ATSB loan guarantee in 2002, which prompted the airline to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy-court protection.
"Nothing has changed since 2002 that is worth risking taxpayer dollars," Schatz said.
The Council for Citizens Against Government Waste (CCAGW) urged the Air Transportation Stabilization Board (ATSB) to deny United Airlines' (UA) request for a $1.6 billion federally backed loan guarantee. The taxpayer group said UA has not established a sound business plan, and taxpayers should not be responsible for covering the cost of the loan should the airline default.
"United is telling the ATSB it is ready to emerge from bankruptcy and just needs a little help, like a $1.6 billion loan, to get back on its feet," CCAGW President Tom Schatz said.
UA was denied an ATSB loan guarantee in 2002, which prompted the airline to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy-court protection.
"Nothing has changed since 2002 that is worth risking taxpayer dollars," Schatz said.
WorldTraveler
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Fly,
The statistics are the collection of airlines that have entered bankruptcy since deregulation and have come out surviving. It is not an anti-United statement to say that the odds of survival from bankruptcy are extraordinarily low and they are getting worse by the day. Continental is one of the very, very few bankruptcy success stories.
I'm not sure who organized the hearings on the airline industry tomorrow but they couldn't come at a worse time for UAL and its loan application. Any sentiment United might have had will get swept away as tales of woe fill the room. No legacy airline has yet figured out how to turn the losses since 9/11 around, including United, and yet they want the government to provide more help. Washington has pretty well indicated they have no interest in helping out the airline industry again and are very likely to let market forces dictate the winners and losers this time.
These days will go down as the darkest in the history of commercial aviation but it is just before dawn that the night is the darkest. It is also noteworthy that the human death rate is highest in the hours right before dawn.
The statistics are the collection of airlines that have entered bankruptcy since deregulation and have come out surviving. It is not an anti-United statement to say that the odds of survival from bankruptcy are extraordinarily low and they are getting worse by the day. Continental is one of the very, very few bankruptcy success stories.
I'm not sure who organized the hearings on the airline industry tomorrow but they couldn't come at a worse time for UAL and its loan application. Any sentiment United might have had will get swept away as tales of woe fill the room. No legacy airline has yet figured out how to turn the losses since 9/11 around, including United, and yet they want the government to provide more help. Washington has pretty well indicated they have no interest in helping out the airline industry again and are very likely to let market forces dictate the winners and losers this time.
These days will go down as the darkest in the history of commercial aviation but it is just before dawn that the night is the darkest. It is also noteworthy that the human death rate is highest in the hours right before dawn.
Oh, in other words, it's just a dream of yours Hmmm...I read every one of those, and didn't hear any glee. Maybe I'm just too dense. All I see are several statements regarding how things look bad over at UA. Things do look bad at UA. They're looking better, but if UA were an airplane, we'd still be hearing the GPWS yelling at us.
I would agree that the industry isn't completely "stable", but the reality is that in a competitive environment, it should not be. But the industry is "stable" from the perspective that we are no longer fearing that the entire industry will go bankrupt. There was a time (9/11/01 - mid 2002), when some folks believed that every major airline in the country (except Southwest) would go bankrupt. We have come a long way from that point. Heck, we even have several airlines posting profits!herkav8r said:
WorldTraveller: Your idea that UAL be required to find an equity partner combined with an ATSB guarantee is not a bad idea... I wonder if the board members will come up with that recommendation.
I've assumed all along that any loan (even a federally guaranteed one) would require an equity investment by someone; usually, smart lenders don't allow large debt without someone investing their own money and placing it at risk. And the $400 million not covered by the guarantee isn't what I'm talking about.funguy2 said:
RSA invested a couple hundred million or more in UAir, and unless someone steps up with a few hundred million to invest in UAL, I'm betting that the federal loan application goes nowhere.
But I've been wrong before.
WorldTraveler
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Fly,
While you may think otherwise, I do not take glee in your misfortune - or anyone's for that matter. In case you hadn't noticed, United is not the "world's favorite airline" which would certainly help right now in United's and the industry's darkest hour. I do think I do represent a number of people who are more critical of United than other legacy airlines. While you may not agree with me, it might give you some insight that might help you turn UAL's fortunes around:
1. Recognize that you are seriously in a lot of "doo-doo" to quote another poster. For too long, I've heard an aweful lot of people just blow off United's troubles as being temporary. UAL has got to recognize the trouble they are in and face it head on. To borrow religious language, UAL should be crying "Lord have mercy on us".
2. It is UAL's job to correct its problems head on instead of blaming everyone else for its problems and asking them to bail them out. While there was sentiment to helping the airlines right after 9/11, that isn't there anymore - billions of dollars in aid have already been given. A big part of the legacy airlines' troubles is that they keep whining "woe is us" when they should be crying "I think I can, I think I can"
3. Recognize that business is all about survival of the fittest. Right now, other airlines like AA and DL are doing a better job of adapting to the permanently changed business model which has evolved in the US legacy airline industry.
4. United has some of best assets in the world and they have them because the American government and people had and have faith in United Airlines. Being a steward of that trust requires that United deliver the best service to the American people at the best possible price. (On this count, United has excelled very well since 9/11).
5. Finally, recognize that many things are outside of any of our control. War, SARS, the economy, oil prices are the things that kill airlines and yet are the outside of any airline management or employees' control. The key to survival is to manage through the best of times which can be controlled so that survival is possible when the uncontrollable circumstances come along.
I don't relish anyone's failure; United is a grand dame who certainly deserves respect. However, all of the forces above have to come together just right in order for any of us to have a chance at success - and then it is far from guaranteed.
The consolidation that I speak of has been predicted for nearly 30 years - before the airlines were deregulated. Perhaps now will be the time that the US airline industry will finally stabilize - something that hasn't happened since deregulation. I don't wish for United's failure but I do recognize that the entire legacy industry is on the verge of collapse and something dramatic will have to happen, most likely failure of one or two of the big boys, or the entire lot will be lost.
While you may think otherwise, I do not take glee in your misfortune - or anyone's for that matter. In case you hadn't noticed, United is not the "world's favorite airline" which would certainly help right now in United's and the industry's darkest hour. I do think I do represent a number of people who are more critical of United than other legacy airlines. While you may not agree with me, it might give you some insight that might help you turn UAL's fortunes around:
1. Recognize that you are seriously in a lot of "doo-doo" to quote another poster. For too long, I've heard an aweful lot of people just blow off United's troubles as being temporary. UAL has got to recognize the trouble they are in and face it head on. To borrow religious language, UAL should be crying "Lord have mercy on us".
2. It is UAL's job to correct its problems head on instead of blaming everyone else for its problems and asking them to bail them out. While there was sentiment to helping the airlines right after 9/11, that isn't there anymore - billions of dollars in aid have already been given. A big part of the legacy airlines' troubles is that they keep whining "woe is us" when they should be crying "I think I can, I think I can"
3. Recognize that business is all about survival of the fittest. Right now, other airlines like AA and DL are doing a better job of adapting to the permanently changed business model which has evolved in the US legacy airline industry.
4. United has some of best assets in the world and they have them because the American government and people had and have faith in United Airlines. Being a steward of that trust requires that United deliver the best service to the American people at the best possible price. (On this count, United has excelled very well since 9/11).
5. Finally, recognize that many things are outside of any of our control. War, SARS, the economy, oil prices are the things that kill airlines and yet are the outside of any airline management or employees' control. The key to survival is to manage through the best of times which can be controlled so that survival is possible when the uncontrollable circumstances come along.
I don't relish anyone's failure; United is a grand dame who certainly deserves respect. However, all of the forces above have to come together just right in order for any of us to have a chance at success - and then it is far from guaranteed.
The consolidation that I speak of has been predicted for nearly 30 years - before the airlines were deregulated. Perhaps now will be the time that the US airline industry will finally stabilize - something that hasn't happened since deregulation. I don't wish for United's failure but I do recognize that the entire legacy industry is on the verge of collapse and something dramatic will have to happen, most likely failure of one or two of the big boys, or the entire lot will be lost.
whatkindoffreshhell
Veteran
The only people who care about UA obtaining ATSB guarantees are UA employees.
Fear of change folks.
The feds didn't prop up the integrated steelmakers, who have a much larger impact on American life than a single misguided airline.
Bend over fly cause your turn is coming.
Then the real business of restructuring UA can begin. Less Tilton/Brace.
Fear of change folks.
The feds didn't prop up the integrated steelmakers, who have a much larger impact on American life than a single misguided airline.
Bend over fly cause your turn is coming.
Then the real business of restructuring UA can begin. Less Tilton/Brace.
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