WN to add 15 new cities from DAL.

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700UW

700UW

Corn Field
Nov 11, 2003
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Not while you are spreading misinformation and using Delta and Ford and Harrison's talking points.
 
Why dont you quit lying and commenting, or is do they tell you to comment when you visit the Breakrooms and Galleys?
 
Since you arent a Delta employee and yet you criticize others for the same behavior you committ.
 
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WorldTraveler

Corn Field
Dec 5, 2003
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I can think for myself, thank you very much.

I don't copy and paste outdated information.

You trashed Tim Nelson who had the situation pegged. You couldn't possibly admit that someone else has a better sense of the business than you.
 
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robbedagain

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WorldTraveler said:
again, the people of Dallas don't care what happened 10 years ago and if they did they would be more concerned that WN sends out a higher percentage of its maintenance than any other large US carrier and that AA shuttered a major maintenance base in the metroplex. And that is all recent news, not something from 10 years ago.

focusing on stuff like this that has nothing to do with the topic and will have no influence in the decision is a mere attempt at trying to admit that WN's case isn't really as strong as they want to make it out to be.

No, I don't have any knowledge that DL will win the gates. But I have a little common sense and I understand that there will never be a basis for any carrier to dominate an airport to the exclusion of other airlines that want to serve it.

The notion that WN can threaten to move offices out of Dallas if it doesn't get all of the gates at DAL is beyond disgusting and shows how badly WN tries to avoid direct competition with the one airline that is capable of putting WN in its place. If it was really in Dallas' best interest for WN to win gates, they would get it. But no one believes that it is a good thing for any airline including WN to dominate an entire publicly funded airport.

it is not about DL. It is about competition. WN doesn't want. it wants to dominate the airport. Even in the most distorted view of American economics, it doesn't work to expect one company to monopolize a market to the expense of all other companies. And there is nothing pro-consumer about eliminating the possibility of competition.

If it comes down to DL's ability to operate its proposed schedule or WN getting more gates, DL will gain access. I am more than willing to bet.

anyone care to bet against me?
 
you sure make it sound like dl has those gates  but reality of the fact is  you nor i nor anyone knows for sure IF delta truly gets the gates
now if wn does get the gates  will we see the delta legal challenge?  we are still waiting for the links to that
 

swamt

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WT, I will take you up on your bet.  If it comes down to DAL and SWA for the 2 gates to be divested, by AA, at LF, your on.   I have no idea if any other carriers are interested for the gates at LF. But as you stated, if it comes down to SWA and DAL being the 2 competitors for the 2 gates at SWA, I will, overwhelmingly bet it will end up in SWA's favor...
 

WorldTraveler

Corn Field
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great.... tell me what restaurant.

I'd love to meet you.

As much as I get the "need" that WN has for gates at DAL, I don't think we will see any airline at any airport be permitted to control 80% of the gates to the exclusion of others from the market.

If we generate into selling gates to the highest bidders, then I can assure you that DL will outbid WN for the rest of concourse C and D in ATL, the rest of the space at SLC, etc.

And I would fully expect that every other airline would do the same to the extent that it can.

Airport gates are on the verge of becoming the most valuable asset in aviation. There are FAA slots at only 4 major airports but there are gate limitations at dozens of airports that have the ability to lock out the competition.

What happens at DAL is symptomatic of this larger problem and how the government will allow airports to be managed.

The DOJ can't argue that they are forcing competition into DCA and LGA thru the slot divestiture process and then allow any airline to add gates at any airport that has the potential to stifle competition.

You want to extrapolate WN's access to LGA and DCA to include access to DAL, an airport where every basis that was used to justify more gates at DCA and LGA no longer applies.

I'll take the prime rib.
 
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robbedagain

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So essentially then delta should not be allowed to control 80% of their hubs as neither wn can at dal and aa at dfw etc so forth
 

WorldTraveler

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DL doesn't control 80% of the gates at any of its hubs... and neither does any other airline.

There are federal laws that require access for competitors. WN controls a far higher percentage of gates at its largest airports than any other airport.

The fact that DAL has a hard size limit makes it all the more important that gates be available for other competitors, regardless of how much money WN wants to pay.

If you want to start bidding to control airports, I can assure you that the DOJ's little efforts at DCA and LGA would be put to shame.
 
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robbedagain

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We are still waiting for a link to the delta will file legal challenge w regards to dca you said back in Nov when the agreement btwn us aa and usa was reached that delta would file legal challenge on the other hand will dl file a so called legal challenge if wn gets the slots at dal or if anthr lcc gets them???
 
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WorldTraveler

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first of all, as I said, the process is not over.

second, I never said that "DL will file..." even with conditions. I can't tell you what DL will definitely do.

I am certain that they are weighing their options and if they believe a legal challenge would make a difference in any part of this, they would.

third, it doesn't change the whole basis of the discussion which is that we are not going to allow US airports to be sold out to the highest bidder which is exactly what would happen if WN is allowed to acquire 90% of the gates there, up from 80%.
BTW, probably the highest concentration of gates by a single carrier at a large airport is CLT.
There is no DL or UA or AA (nAAtive) hub that comes close.

if another LCC gets gates at DAL, then DL has no case, but no one has come forward as much as some of you want that to happen ... no one is willing to take on WN and leave DFW where they are doing well.

BTW, I am very, very proud of swamt for standing up for his convictions.

I have always respected WN and I respect their people. He has shown me what he is made of and I commend him for his character.

I think I'll extend the bet to say that he doesn't have to pay for my lunch but I would be happy to do so for him if that is what he wants.

Since we don't have a contract, we have the flexibility to do what we both think is fair. hehehe
 
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robbedagain

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How do we know for sure absolute sure that NO other lcc will bid for dal? Theres always that chance. Second anthr poster pulled up ur famous lines from nov when you clearly said delta will file legal challenge.... if itnhas not happen by now I doubt it will ever come to fruition
 

swamt

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Robbed,  Just to clarify, none of us, or at least myself, have any knowledge of other LCC's putting in for the DAL gates.
From what I know there is still time for late entrants to bid for them.
 
WT,  As far as I am concerned, an acknowledgement would be enough to settle our bet.  No monies, no lunches, just a friendly bet.  Like we both have said before, "as long as it comes down to DAL and SWA for the 2 gates at LF"  I STRONGLY believe it will be awarded to SWA.  As I have mentioned awhile back about Delta selling tickets on flights that do not exist, and not guaranteed as of yet, may very well have some major consequences on Delta later, OR, during the awarding process.  I am sorry, but I cannot get any deeper into that. 
If there is other LCC's that do put in they will be strongly considered.  Other than that, I am being told SWA will get the LF gates.  Just passing along info that was passed onto me from folks in the know.  I am not saying this is guaranteed, just telling you what I have been told from good connections.  Other than SWA and Delta I have no clue who else will get involved.  Good luck to all of us, I know Delta wants them bad, as does SWA, the show down awaits us all...
 
BTW thx for the kind words WT.
 

WorldTraveler

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let's be clear.... neither DL or WN will live or die based on the two gates that are up for grabs here.

DL's competitive advantage is that it will be the only carrier that can and likely would serve the Metroplex from two airports, again a tactic it has used in Chicago. But DL continues to see above average revenue gains from DFW and that likely would continue. Further, the chances are high that there will be increased low fare competition from both DFW and DAL which will force AA to reduce fares or lose share, making it easier for other network carriers to gain share. DL has successfully used the strategy of following on the heels of other low fare carriers in their attacks on other legacy/network carrier strongholds to grow - and that strategy isn't going to change whether DL gets into DAL or not. It isn't lost on me or anyone else that neither AA or WN want DL able to compete on a stronger basis than either of those two from the Metroplex.


For WN, two more gates could mean 20 more flights/day or so... but WN could also grow by cutting back its shorter haul flights from Texas and using bigger planes. Unless WN uses a full 738 schedule from DAL and runs 10+ flights/gate/day - and they could easily do more than that - plus carries virtually no local traffic, it is hard to argue that WN is being blocked from growing its presence at DAL.

And if WN offered 160+ flights per day from DAL using 738s with minimal local traffic, they would offer more than enough seats to more than carry the entire local domestic market that AA carries from DFW. The argument that WN must have access to those two gates in order to be able to fully compete against AA is simply not there. LGA and DCA are both heavily slot controlled airports and the not
vast majority of the flights there carry very little local traffic. WN can't argue that they need more facilities than they presently have until they treat DAL just like it wants to be treated at DCA and LGA - maximize the use of its own assets.

One other piece of this is that there are still other gates at DAL that could be available to DL even if these two gates go to someone else. And let's also note that even no LFC even at DFW has enough flights to justify the use of two gates at the levels of utilization that DL or WN plans for DAL. The only LFC that could do that is Spirit and they are having to rework their own strategies in order to get earnings growth going; the chances that they or anyone else are going to move into an LCC's backyard is still slim to none given that they have committed a lot of energy and effort to growing at DFW.

UA like DL could add flights from DAL alongside its DFW operation but they are in the midst of a messy cost cutting and revenue optimization process that Wall Street is not terribly impressed with so far. Again, the chances that they are going to use all of the gate capabilities they have are very low.

It is very possible that DL can gain access to gates at DAL even without the AA gates. It is also not at all clear that DL's gate sub-lease has been terminated meaning they do have a legal right to continue to post schedules for the gate they do use.

DL might have played out the strategies of who might take the gates or obtained back up plans for them between its announcement of its intent to serve DAL and its publication of exactly schedules.

And it still doesn't change that the real issue is whether any carrier should be allowed to dominate the facilities or slots at any airport. There is no legal or economic basis for arguing that WN or any LCC should be able to gain slots at DCA or LGA and then allow any carrier, including WN, to control over 80% of the gates at an airport that others wants to serve.

It's interesting to note that DL is and will continue to control large portions of both LGA and DCA and there is nothing that requires them to give up any space - which is spread over 3 terminals at LGA while DL has an entire concourse at DCA pretty well to itself. AA and WN can play hard ball but the customer experience at both airports for both carriers will go way down the tubes if all of these new passengers are forced to use the same facilities that handled far fewer passengers in the past.

Finally, above the tits and tats back and forth in this debate, what I most enjoy is that you have a very good sense of the business of the airline industry. My first love on this site is debating the business of the airline industry - and you make a great debate partner.

Part of what I have long admired about WN - and have stated on here - is that WN employees have a very strong sense of how to make sure the company wins so that the employees can win. Very, very few people on this site - and I dare say in the airline industry - fully understand the business of the airline industry and also understand the labor movement. You do a very good job of covering both. Most people are good at one side or the other.

WN's strength comes from being able to align company and employee interests so both win.

Regardless of what happens with these two gates, I expect that WN will continue to win in the marketplace because it has managed to get its employees largely on its side - as much as that is possible to do with multiple workgroups and tens of thousands of employees.
 
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swamt

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You are correct WT, there are other gates that DL could use.  I believe UAL is using one of them currently. 
You never know, they could split the gates, one for DL and one for SWA as a solution.  I doubt that will happen, but it could.  I know Dl would use their gates wisely as would SWA, but as part of the agreement gates at LF must be used or lose them.  I am wondering if UAL may decide to pull from LF keeping their flights all at DFW, just curious if part of UAL's 2 billion recon would include moving LF flights to DFW.
 

WorldTraveler

Corn Field
Dec 5, 2003
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if WN wants to get UA to pull out of DAL, the best thing UA could do is to start IAH service. That is all they operate now.
Interestingly, one city pair that remains unserved and would likely remain so is ORD-DAL. Not sure if UA would try to compete against MDW-DAL but ORD-DAL is a fairly large market that likely would remain without service. Also, based on WN's announced plans, there are no plans for service from DAL on any carrier to BOS or the Bay Area. Both are fairly large markets. B6 is in BOS-DFW which probably pushes down the fares that WN would have to offer.
 
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jimntx

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ORD-DAL may be unserved, but one could hardly say that the city pair, Dallas-Chicago, is unserved with 15 flights/day on AA and 7 or 8 on UA. And, I wouldn't bet the rent money that WN will leave the DAL-MDW route unserved.
 
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