Workers Face Difficult Choices

[Garfield1966]

What makes you say that? Because I didn't include an obligatory slam on President Bush?

The moderators of this board have made it perfectly clear (at least to me) that political discussions have absolutely no place in the airline forums. I respect their wishes.

Political discussions belong in the Just Conversation forum (at the bottom of the page), not here.

[post="183492"][/post]​

Politics touches every aspect of our life. As long as it pertains to the topic at hand (which I believe it does) there should not be a problem.

 

[Oneflyer]

you may whore your self out to walmart but I DO NOT, people like you and oneflyer are the reason jobs are being sent to the lowest bidder! saftey and quality be damned, give you the rock bottom price. well guess what your job may find its way over seas!

1. Just because its unionized doesn't equal better quality. Get over yourself.

2. AA could find someone to do my job for less money, but I do it more better and more efficiently than someone they could find for less. There are plenty of people lined up to do YOUR job more effiecently and for less money.

 

[local 12 proud]

1. Just because its unionized doesn't equal better quality. Get over yourself.

2. AA could find someone to do my job for less money, but I do it more better and more efficiently than someone they could find for less. There are plenty of people lined up to do YOUR job more effiecently and for less money.

[post="183704"][/post]​

this idiotic post isnt worth an intelligent reply

 

[MiAAmi]

What exactly do you want Bush to do about it?

Government intervention is a big reason why the industry is in such bad shape, if airlines were allowed to go out of business the industry could reinvent itself into a money making industry, which surprisingly would increase wages. Letting the airline industry fail, specifically certain airlines is EXACTLY what needs to happen.

[post="183170"][/post]​

Stop filling the national reserve for one. Face it the Bush and Cheney people are all about big oil. How long after the industry reinvents itself would those good wages take effect? 10-20 years??? What is everyone suppose to do in the mean time?

 

[Garfield1966]

this idiotic post isnt worth an intelligent reply

[post="183710"][/post]​

Is mine to stupid as well? I think they were valid points.

 

[local 12 proud]

How exactly is labor under attack?

[post="183136"][/post]​

do you really need an explanation, look how many jobs (labor) has been outsourced since 9/11 and the massive concessions given to help bail the industry out of its nose dive :huh: you are actually naive enough to ask such a stupid question? you are no doubt management and are a liar indeed if you dare say you have shared in the sacrifice we have given, or you have your head burried in the sand. which is it? i presume its the former

 

[Oneflyer]

no doubt management and are a liar

You must be in a union therefore too stupid to understand economics

 

[local 12 proud]

You must be in a union therefore too stupid to understand economics

[post="184040"][/post]​

i understand economics quite well oneflyer, i also recognize a out right screwing of the very people who keep OUR passengers coming back, you see there is also a thing called integrity which where i work all labor fails to see the shared sacrifice that managment likes to boast about, but i figure its usless to spell it out for a economics guru such as you! here let me lay it down for you like this "SATISFIED EMPLOYEES = SATISFIED PASSENGERS" now thats pretty simple economics even for a stupid union man to understand

 

[Garfield1966]

i understand economics quite well oneflyer, i also recognize a out right screwing of the very people who keep OUR passengers coming back, you see there is also a thing called integrity which where i work all labor fails to see the shared sacrifice that managment likes to boast about, but i figure its usless to spell it out for a economics guru such as you! here let me lay it down for you like this "SATISFIED EMPLOYEES = SATISFIED PASSENGERS" now thats pretty simple economics even for a stupid union man to understand

[post="184106"][/post]​

So, how do you want to fix it if the cheapest air fare wins? How can we keep you happy and remain competitive in the domestic and international market?

I assume that since you have not responded to my previous inquire that you acknowledge buying product and or services that have used out sourced labor or products and have, as a result, affected the job security of a US worker such as your self. As long as we have that out of the way.

By the way, if you can do it with out being insulting that would be much appreciated.

 

[Garfield1966]

do you really need an explanation, look how many jobs (labor) has been outsourced since 9/11 and the massive concessions given to help bail the industry out of its nose dive :huh: you are actually naive enough to ask such a stupid question? you are no doubt management and are a liar indeed if you dare say you have shared in the sacrifice we have given, or you have your head burried in the sand. which is it? i presume its the former

[post="183924"][/post]​

Please see 3rd to last post on page 1 of this thread for a response to the out sourcing question.

I'm not going to get into the shared sacrifice crap which has been discussed far to much already.

 

[local 12 proud]

So, how do you want to fix it if the cheapest air fare wins? How can we keep you happy and remain competitive in the domestic and international market?

I assume that since you have not responded to my previous inquire that you acknowledge buying product and or services that have used out sourced labor or products and have, as a result, affected the job security of a US worker such as your self. As long as we have that out of the way.

By the way, if you can do it with out being insulting that would be much appreciated.

[post="184124"][/post]​

garfield1966 i will respond to both of your post and will do so without insults, i expect my intelligence not to be belittled because i dont hold a mba in buisnessok fair enough! first we can not "remain competitive in the domestic and international market" with the LCC's with our cost structure all to often we here this same tripe about competing with the southwest's, well this is comparing apples to oranges my friend. the low cost carrier's target a specific market, WE try to be all things to all people its impossible to do this and offer the amneities at LCC's cost yet turn a profit period! you want to compete with the LCC's then you have one alternative, you become an LCC, that means cutting to the bare bones and giving the passenger what is important which is a cheap seat, as the old saying goes..."you can't have your cake and eat it too"... becoming competitive does not work by imposing massive concessions on your employees its been tried numerous times at other carriers and they are long gone. im not paid to fix your buissness plan, that's what arpey and the rest get the big $$$ for, im paid to show up every day and provide the safeist most well maintained a/c fleet in this world and we do a damn good job, but when you gut my contract and tell me im not worthy of my hard earned pay and benefits because we have no other solution, well things will only go down hill from there. one of the founders of southwest airlines named herb keller(sp?) has as always said keep your employees satisfied and the rest will fix itself, well i guess it works pretty damn well far those folks, lets see now thirty plus years in service and never a year of losses. OBTW southwest labor has some of the best contracts in the industry.

 

[Kev3188]

You must be in a union therefore too stupid to understand economics

[post="184040"][/post]​

Quite a broad brush you're painting with there, Flash. Belonging to a union does not equate to being simian. Must be hard to see that from way up on your high horse. Get over yourself.

 

[local 12 proud]

I do not go to Wal-Mart. But that does not really matter now does it. The majority of the people do shop their. So, I ask you again. Do you have a way to offset the cost of your labor or not? If you do not, then the AMR or any company for that matter out of necessity for survival, must look else where in order to lessen their costs. Most people will look for the best deal. That is the world we live in. If you choose to live in a reality where everyone gets paid what they are worth, you go right ahead.

The US government should have been more concerned with the standard of living in the rest of the world rather than defending the mineral and resource rights of despots and dictators. We should have all been concerned with the people of Mexico having clean water, clean air and a decent economy as opposed to the “big bad Russiaâ€￾ taking over the world. Because as far as I am concerned, it is not Russia he “hadâ€￾ to worry about, it is Mexico and China how we HAVE to worry about.
Local, just curious, have you gone through your closet and checked how many items have been made my low cost labor in China and Thailand? Have you gone through the components on your vehicle and seen how many of them were subcontracted out to Mexico or other 3rd world nations? Have you looked at the appliances in your home and ensured that they were all manufactured solely here in the US with components build in the US by companies who do not use immigrant labor? Do you shop at local markets who get their produce from farmers who only use American labor to pick their crops with American built tools and machines? Are you getting my point Local? You do not have to shop at Wal Mart to affect US labor. I know that you have items in your possession that have affected the future of a US laborer. Do not even try to deny it. It is not humanly possible not to. Hell, Ford builds cars in Mexico, Honda builds cars in the US. Are the cars Mexican, US or Japanese?

Companies are in business to make money. They are not in business for our enjoyment. For any employee who feels they are not earning the salary that they feel they are entitled to, that individual is more than welcome to search for an employer who will pay them what they want. Unfortunately, in this day and age, that may be easier said than done. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer. So when you vote, keep this in mind. The US is not an island. We are part of a world community. How the rest of the world is living affects us in a very real manner. When someone slams the idea of us “givingâ€￾ money away to less fortunate nations under the guise of “aidâ€￾, keep in mind that if we do not help Mexico and other such nations get on their feet, those citizens will be looking else where to make a living.

So Local, unless you have a fix for the problem, get used to it because it is not going to get better anytime soon, if it ever does.

[post="183429"][/post]​

garfield1966, you are precisely right we live in a world economy and thanks to NAFTA which by the way was pushed thru by a democrat so lets leave the politics out of the equation because demican or republicrat it does'nt matter its about big buissness. now obtaining the lowest cost possible to increase the profit margin does'nt not always work, don't believe me? have you ever used a wrench made in the ROC (chinese)? well i have and they are made from cheap alloy steel with very poor dimensions, meaning they will strip most fastners or the wrenches will fail. this is just one of many examples that come to mind, yes they are very affordable but "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR". our wages are being driven down by in a large part to our very relaxed open border policy, wher you have illegals who are willing to work for less than minimum wages and companys willing to sacrifice quality for profit margins. look at some of our european allies, germany being one, they have very strict immigration laws, they produce some of the finest auto's in the world and they have some of the best pay and benefits to back it up. yes your right garfield most people do shop at walmart and don't really care that most of their employees are part time, no benefits, and usally have to work several jobs just to get by, but you are getting what you pay for in the end a cheap product and supporting the child labor sweat shops of third world nations. i don't profess to have all the answers for the one who does come up with a solution will be americas savior, but by god i would start with closing our borders and imposing hefty taxes on any company who wishes to produce "AMERICAN" made products off the backs of the lowest bidder throwing safety and quality to the wind. the greedy corporations of this country are indeed killing the working class, so what do we do? say oh well we must compete with child labor now, you are correct the rich are getting richer and WE are getting poorer so lets just roll over and concede more, or maybe like france ironically stand up to this corruption and say enough!

 

[Garfield1966]

If we cannot be competitive with the domestic LLC’s then I am guess we all need to go home and call it a day. I was hoping that our domestic operation could come down in cost and the Intl operation could make up the difference. Not sure if that works or not but I do not see another way out of it.

This may be getting into politics but I think, as I stated earlier it is all intertwined. I’ll deal with closing the borders first. As I alluded to in my earlier post, immigrant labor, both legal and illegal in my opinion are here to stay. We cannot close our borders. It is not practical to set up a 20 foot high wall and hire / divert adequate law enforcement to patrol it. Second, if the borders are closed, who will pick the produce? Who will baby sit the rich kids? Who will clean their bathrooms? Who will do all the crap jobs that the “gringo†is too good to do? We are not prepared to pay the cost of what US labor would want to do those jobs. Not so sure about Europe. From what I have read, they too have huge immigrant problems and if you have read JD Powers, you will see that the once mighty BMW, MB, VW, Audi … et al are all getting a beating by the guys across the pond who we Nuked 50 years ago … Ironic ain’t it?

You want to tax out sourcing? That might work but I doubt it. The only way it will work is if you get the EEC to go along with you and on top of that you have to somehow manage not to piss off China. I know China is a bastard but they are going to be the biggest consumer nation in the world in a little bit. If you try and cut them off they will get pissed and who knows how nuts they can get. That’s why Japan got all pissed off during WWII.

SW is a one horse show that by your own admission we cannot compete with so if we cannot compete with them, they you cannot have their salary. I know you know that but some folks here do not seem to get that point. I do not like the salary cuts any more than you do. I did not get a raise for 4 years prior to 9/11 and then took a cut on top of that. I do not see what else could have been done. Labor is one of the biggest costs. Yes there is waste but in any large corporation that exists. It is the nature of the beast. Is management corrupt? Yea, some of them are. Are the employees innocent, most yes but not all? I have 20 plus years to go before I retire and I would like to do it with AA. I like my job. I have liked the jobs I have done with AA for close to 20 years now. I’ve been screwed over so many times that I carry my own jar of KY now to save time but hell, that happens every where.

For me the bottom line is that American labor is pricing it’s self out of existence. Our standard of living will be our down fall. As long as there are people out there to whom $100 a month is really really good money, the value of my labor and your labor will decrease. They will out source A/C maint to some 3rd world nation and hope that a tragedy does not happen but knowing it will. That will be factored into the cost of business. My job will be computerized or out sourced to a smart monkey. They will have vending machines on A/C so we will not need FA’s.

I don’t have the answers either but I do believe we all need to come up with something. Otherwise we are all screwed.

 

[WorldTraveler]

There's a good reason why the US continues to allow immigrant labor in - to support the growing amounts of social responsibilities to older Americans that the US has. You cannot stop the country from growing and expect seniors to continue to get social security and pensions. The EU realized this and have been welcoming (annexing) eastern European countries into the EU. The US has no choice to allow immigrant workers in or the pension cuts will be even deeper than what has been proposed.