-190 Pay Rates

:angry: Dinosaurs beware: This industry has been on the downside for about 40 years. Full service and meals actually meant something back then. You will not make the same money as previously. If you think a union will protect you, then keep drinking the Kool-Aid. People are going to stay in this industry because they like the career, not the benefits or the pay. If that is too tough for you to swallow, then get over it.
 
markkus757 said:
Dinosaurs beware: ....
That last person to call the "legacy" airlines Dinosaurs was Don Burr. Greenhorns: Read your history books and find out where he (and his airline) is today. Recommended Reading: Hard Landing by Petzinger.
 
MadDogMike said:
That last person to call the "legacy" airlines Dinosaurs was Don Burr. Greenhorns: Read your history books and find out where he (and his airline) is today. Recommended Reading: Hard Landing by Petzinger.
Cut the crap on the Greenhorns. You're not dealing with a lot of youngsters here. Were you around the industry when Burr was doing his antics or did you have to read about it. You don't have to be insulting to have these dialogues. :rolleyes:
 
Speedbird said:
The best you can offer is second-hand information yet somehow you come across as the one who has some kind of moral high ground on this issue.

Look your input has been noted, along with several other off-line pilots who share your short-term view of what may or may not happen at jetBlue in the next 12-24 months.

If someone wants to argue that jetblue is leading the way to bringing down the hard fought pay and benefits earned by generations of other "professional" airline pilots, then you might as well condemn everyone else while you're at it since just about all pilot groups have arguably contributed to that end in the last three years.
Other existing carriers are taking the paycut to address market realities. The reality is another carrier here -jetblue- is setting the bar to -never seen before- lows. We're talking about 100 seat jet compensation levels at commuter standards, at an airline that is growing profitably.

No moral high ground here, just reality.

It has nothing to do with ALPA. As of right now, that rate is set, and it sucks.

So why do you clowns keep trying to confuse the issue here?

Markkus757, you make it sound like being pilot sound be done for love, not money. While I enjoy what I do, I would never do it for love.
 
Which airline introduced B-scale? How long did it last?

The EMB-190 isn't here yet, jetblue is less than five years old, ridiculed with scorn by "real airline pilots" as a small start up, yet we should pay at the major level?

How long did it take SWA, CAL, AWA, ATA etc, to reach an "acceptable level"?
 
Dizel8 said:
Which airline introduced B-scale? How long did it last?

The EMB-190 isn't here yet, jetblue is less than five years old, ridiculed with scorn by "real airline pilots" as a small start up, yet we should pay at the major level?

How long did it take SWA, CAL, AWA, ATA etc, to reach an "acceptable level"?
Agreed.

B6 Captain pay for the 320 ranges from $110-$139/hr, not all that far behind AA, where 738 Captain pay ranges from $144-$156, especially considering the 70 hr B6 guarantee (and 1.5 premium paid for hours above 70) and AA's 64 hr guarantee. On average, AA pilots don't exceed the guarantee (of course, some do). Add to that the almost certainty that B6 stock will probably make its pilots rich (those who choose to invest in it) compared to the near-certainty that AMR stock will make nobody rich, no matter what happens.

All in all, the payscales at B6 aren't that far out of line with majors who have cut their costs. Comared to DL, on the other hand . . .
 
FWAAA said:
B6 Captain pay for the 320 ranges from $110-$139/hr, not all that far behind AA, where 738 Captain pay ranges from $144-$156
http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/jetblue/jetblue.htm

Except:

1. There are no 12 year jetBlue Captains. With the 5 year "renewable" contract who knows if there ever will be any. So, today's rate is $121 as per the linked reference. So, let's compare apples to apples.

2. The requirement for companies to expense stock options may eliminate that "perk" for jetBlue pilots, so, once again, your comment is disingenuous.

You can "blue sky" jetBlue's pay scales all you want, but the truth is their pay/benefits are substandard and they're non-union. Any improvements will be at the whim of management with no input required or desired from the pilot group.
 
Fubijaakr said:
http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/jetblue/jetblue.htm

Except:

1. There are no 12 year jetBlue Captains. With the 5 year "renewable" contract who knows if there ever will be any. So, today's rate is $121 as per the linked reference. So, let's compare apples to apples.

2. The requirement for companies to expense stock options may eliminate that "perk" for jetBlue pilots, so, once again, your comment is disingenuous.

You can "blue sky" jetBlue's pay scales all you want, but the truth is their pay/benefits are substandard and they're non-union. Any improvements will be at the whim of management with no input required or desired from the pilot group.
Very valid points you have made.

1. Even with the 'Evergreen' automatically renewing contracts every 5 years, there are not any guarantees. Even with a union on the property and no contracts, there are no guarantees at any company that I know of for continued existence and operation.

2. As 'disingenous' as you may find the stock options offered, they are real, valid and not something offered by every operator in our industry. I for one was never offered these anywhere I worked. I have another tidbit which may appeal to your execrable attitude toward us underlings at B6. Regarding our 'perks', before you comment, may I suggest 'Consider Your Options' by K.A.Thomas.

Right you are, we are non union, underpaid, with pitiful benefits, operating at the whim of a glutonous, selfserving corporation which may or may not dole out any scraps to the hungry hounds.
I don't want to bring anything personal into this but after over 25 years of ALPA membership, I wondered where ALPA was at the end when I was standing up to my knees in smoldering corporate ruin with a family who was accustomed to wonderful pay and benefits and all the prestiege of being part of a 'major' named airline. Get a grip on something real here. If you want to talk apples to apples, let's do. Your beloved union is nothing to do with your job security. Your benefits, pay and 'job security' are all guarantees of your union's negotiations with your employer. I assure you that the difference in my lifestyle now and compared with 'then' are negligible. The dollar buying power if I rely only on my airline income may be a little less, but nothing considered pitiful by the yardstick of our country's masses of workers. We are all pitifully paid if you consider the big picture in corporate America. I don't even know what the dues are now but considering it was somewhere under 2% eons ago when I paid, and considering that I am offered 'free' loss of license insurance, which at my age is somewhere around $600. US lucky bucks/month, the hourly pay argument is brought a little closer to even. Considering that I am offered all the health and medical, life insurance I ever had at a union represented carrier for a mere pitance per pay period. Considering that the offers here of profit sharing are actually something that you can 'put in the bank' and have equalled a substantial amount of money each year for several consecutive years. The company actually matches a portion of our retirement contributions, (what a concept). Considering the open door policy and the availability the headshed has with regular public accessibility meetings and annual surveys of our desires, likes and dislikes which they listen to and act upon, it seems that we do have a very good company in which we may all be proud to work for. Are they different from yours, YES. Am I glad, YES. Do I have to critique you to make myself feel good about myself, NO. Do I have any reason to believe I am at fault for the rest of the industry's problems which existed long before B6. You answer that one... B)
 
Well said JBU320. I think that as it grows JBU will have a tough time keeping an open door policy--I remember Fedex had one in the early days but there got to be so many pilots and they all had so much to say, Smith had to give it up. Unions to most in this country who don't work for the govt seem like an anachronism, and in the end economics trumps unionism. But unions did have a positive role 80 years ago. I want to get back to looking at the industry though. Anyone want to opine on what US Air is thinking, going back into the NY-FL markets when its already such a dog fight? Jetblue and Delta and Song aren't going to be any easier than Pittsburgh, and the fares are alot lower.
 
Just for the record, I may have come off as being anti-union which is by far not the case. I'm just trying to speak in terms of reality and as Whadayano said so well, the union has had it's place well defined in this country during historic times of employee mistreatment. I have always been a supporter of my union when represented by one. I am by choice employed by a company I like now. I now choose to support my company as best as possible until it treats me with a less than professional manner. If that happens, I will make my determination as to how to deal with it then. At present I am far from being mistreated. As JB grows, the scenario may change but for the time being it is fine.
 
I wonder if the guys who get stuck on the EMB scale will share your enthusiasm once the upgrades stagnate.
 
Ask them in three years! At least until then, the stagnation is a moot point and most of us, despite being a bit disappointed with the pay, still feel this company has tremendous upside and potential.
 
Stagnation is NEVER a moot point. Until they pull the jet up to the door and bring in the maintenance logs, they're just orders.

Orders that can be cancelled.

I remember a guy who jumped ship for UAL in 1991. He was going to be a 757 Capt. in 3 years. Now he's a 767 F/O.

Sometimes even the best laid plans go awry.
 
Fubijaakr said:
Stagnation is NEVER a moot point. Until they pull the jet up to the door and bring in the maintenance logs, they're just orders.

Orders that can be cancelled.

I remember a guy who jumped ship for UAL in 1991. He was going to be a 757 Capt. in 3 years. Now he's a 767 F/O.

Sometimes even the best laid plans go awry.
You are a very presumptuous person. Your glass is always half empty. I only observe from my perspective that not everyone uses the same yardstick to measure reality in our own little worlds. You stick with your guns - miserable sucker. You are guaranteed a miserable existence since nothing will ever be good enough for you...nor will anyone else's existence equal your superior position in life. Go FYS :lol:
 

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