2008 Flight Attendant Average Wage only comparison!

if this makes you feel any better, I have always thought you to be a.. Inflight sales consultant- Beverage display advisor - Snack Box Pro - ending up as the Deferred Lead Flight Attendant...just like the rest of us... even with that...um...opinion! :lol:

Sigh...so true :lol:
 
What the quote says...

Data unless noted is from mainline operations and does not include revenue, expense or capacity from regional affiliates.

4th quarter 2008 projections are based on company guidance and estimates from Robert Herbst. All projections are estimates only and should not be used to make any financial decisions. Forward projections are based on known information as of the date of this report.

4th quarter, and 2008 are projections...because the 4Q data is not available yet, therefore the complete year report is still not complete. Data from the 1st 3 quarters is fro 10-Q filings. Wages are not broken down, but those are the numbers for WAGES, and wages only.

Accurate numbers, accurate information.
 
there has to be an amount(a sole number) why? they had a determined number for the pay concession necessary to subtract from the total number that was budgeted for the group prior.

its like this, there is a specific dollar amount budgeted in any company regarding departments, wages, insurance..ext.

sort of like this in a way..Someone may budget 300.00 a month solely for groceries at the store, that is the amount based on the total income coming in for that month being subtracted. what is spent at the store is different per item and sometimes changes from month to month...so as long as 300.00 is allocated and not overspent, the focus will remain the 300.00 not the individual can of soup one month or the roast the next..

so...a company has a specific dollar amount budgeted for wages...if the total wages for the year is 300 million and 25 million a month, the focus is not basically the individual schedule and pay(as that can change monthly) some will fly minimum line, some will fly maximum, some will be awarded a minimum line and drop to 0, some will pick up...so as long as the number stays in the target range as a group what the individual does is not the main focus, the total group number is! and there is a specific dollar amount budgeted per month/yearly.. does that make sense?

so there has to be a specific number for wages, just as Japbalapa (and I keep typing out Jambalaya when I try to spell that screen name!...) has stated!
 
there has to be an amount(a sole number) why? they had a determined number for the pay concession necessary to subtract from the total number that was budgeted for the group prior.

its like this, there is a specific dollar amount budgeted in any company regarding departments, wages, insurance..ext.

sort of like this in a way..Someone may budget 300.00 a month solely for groceries at the store, that is the amount based on the total income coming in for that month being subtracted. what is spent at the store is different per item and sometimes changes from month to month...so as long as 300.00 is allocated and not overspent, the focus will remain the 300.00 not the individual can of soup one month or the roast the next..

so...a company has a specific dollar amount budgeted for wages...if the total wages for the year is 300 million and 25 million a month, the focus is not basically the individual schedule and pay(as that can change monthly) some will fly minimum line, some will fly maximum, some will be awarded a minimum line and drop to 0, some will pick up...so as long as the number stays in the target range as a group what the individual does is not the main focus, the total group number is! and there is a specific dollar amount budgeted per month/yearly.. does that make sense?

so there has to be a specific number for wages, just as Japbalapa (and I keep typing out Jambalaya when I try to spell that screen name!...) has stated!

Yet hardly accurate even by the publishers own admission. Yet Jalopapoopa chooses to ignore it as somehow inconvenient to her cause.
 
Yet Jalopapoopa chooses to ignore it as somehow inconvenient to her cause.
Dapoes! that is not nice...(no leftover first class entrees...for you!, and dont try to get sneaky about it either because I have my eye on that last bagel in the bun warmer too! just a FYI..)
 
I understand what you are implying, but that does not dismiss the fact, there is still an actual number allocated(per department) monthly/yearly for wages!

Still doesn't change the fact that data is flawed no matter how its spun.
 
Still doesn't change the fact that data is flawed no matter how its spun.
if you believe the number is flawed, or it is being "spun" how do you know for a fact what the number is? how do you know someone else does not already know it? because apparently you dont know it at all!
 
What the quote says...

4th quarter, and 2008 are projections...because the 4Q data is not available yet, therefore the complete year report is still not complete. Data from the 1st 3 quarters is fro 10-Q filings. Wages are not broken down, but those are the numbers for WAGES, and wages only.

Accurate numbers, accurate information.

Complete and total nonsense.

The only wage numbers you'll ever find in a 10-Q (or the annual 10-K) are aggregate wages, which will be the total salaries, wages, benefits, etc. for everyone in the company. No breakdowns are ever provided by workgroup.

Bob Herbst's charts are an impressive compilation of data from 10-Qs, DOT filings, etc, but you can't cite them as definitive authority for something more than they actually represent.

You can bring garbage data to the table if you insist, but don't complain when someone points out the weaknesses in your flawed arguments.
 
Complete and total nonsense.

The only wage numbers you'll ever find in a 10-Q (or the annual 10-K) are aggregate wages, which will be the total salaries, wages, benefits, etc. for everyone in the company. No breakdowns are ever provided by workgroup.

Bob Herbst's charts are an impressive compilation of data from 10-Qs, DOT filings, etc, but you can't cite them as definitive authority for something more than they actually represent.

You can bring garbage data to the table if you insist, but don't complain when someone points out the weaknesses in your flawed arguments.
any number that is used for the future, would be considered a projection or estimate(because those wages have not been paid out) but what can be determined, is simply what has already been paid...and there was a specific...number.
 
if you believe the number if flawed, or it is being "spun" how do you know for a fact what the number is? how do you know someone else does not already know it? because apparently you dont know it at all!

Dig, the author has the disclaimer on the accuracy of the data provided. You didn't see it? You don't know how to interpret it? Or are you just choosing to ignore it like Jalopapoopa?
 
Dig, the author has the disclaimer on the accuracy of the data provided. You didn't see it? You don't know how to interpret it? Or are you just choosing to ignore it like Jalopapoopa?


what I am referring to is simply there was a number based on what has been paid out to each department specifically(wages) over the past several quarters, that is what my point is...
and I do not have that number sitting directly in front of me, so I personally(at this time) cannot state who has been paid higher over the most recent quarters since concessions have been in play.. but that does not mean someone else does not know..

we did stay at our pay rates for two full years(until imposed terms on our group) was paid an equity claim for that same abrogation, so those may be some other issues that may need to be taken into consideration prior to TA3 (since this did not happen too long ago) and items have been returning in the contract.

it is hard for anyone state this as "ridiculous" or being "spun" if another number was not posted to dispute the claim or prove/disprove.. otherwise as well!
 
what I am referring to is simply there was a number based on what has been paid out to each department specifically(wages) over the past several quarters, that is what my point is...
First, companies deal in expense and not just wages (which are merely one factor in expense). While the company may have a budget for specific items - like F/A expense - there is no guarantee that the amount budgeted won't be higher or lower than the actual expense for the year. After all, the company can't just say "We've spent all we budgeted so we're not going to pay you the rest of the year." Conversely, you won't hear the company say "We've got money left over from what we budgeted, so the surplus will be added to your next check."

Second, the BTS form 41 data (which was apparently used by the author of the study) is also expenses and not just wages.

Third, even the BTS data doesn't break out F/A expense - only pilot and F/O expense is broken out. There are 3 other categories of flight ops personnel expense - other flight personnel, trainees/instructors, and personnel expenses.

Fourth, when the carriers file their Form 41 data with the BTS, they don't all report various expenses the same way. For example, US reported the cost of pilot training as a separate expense while HP reported $0 pilot training cost (presumably putting training expense in another category). So if you used the pilot expense numbers to compare pilot costs at those two carriers, you'd be comparing apples to oranges. The same could be true for any comparison of a specific employee group.

Without access to a company's books, it's impossible to make a valid comparison between the wages of an employee group - the specific data needed just isn't available anywhere else. The next best, if you're talking strictly about wages, is to compare the pay scales. Most of the other factors that affect the cost of having the average F/A (or pilot, mechanic, whatever) on the payroll are demographics (the makeup of the group) and contractual. Using the pay scales eliminates the effect of demographic differences, leaving only contractual differences - one group may have better benefits in areas other than pay (like vacation, reserve system, pension contributions by the company (and a 401K is a form of pension plan), etc. while the other group may have elected to get improved pay at the expense of those other items.

Last, it's somewhat surprising that the OP has such faith in the numbers in the report but then neglects the author's "Average flight attendant wage/salary" numbers - perhaps because it disagrees with the OP's premise that NW F/A's make more than DL F/A's.

Jim
 
First, companies deal in expense and not just wages (which are merely one factor in expense).
a general rule of business when a company has employees, it has to account for the wages, the payroll and benefits, and there is a specific number. I would imagine there is a number a company must report regarding wages and other payroll associated expenses they have incurred, or at least I would hope someone is keeping tabs regarding what is being paid out! that one factor regarding expense..is substantial, while you are absolutely correct that it is an expense, there are sub-categories,so to speak, that fall under expense...fuel, wages and other associated business costs under that heading, that is why I have mentioned .."specifically wages"...keyword: specifically and there is a number, but again.. as mentioned in my post, I do not have a number sitting in front of me(regarding the total amount for the year), so of course it would be difficult to determine who is paid more using this one article as a reference.

While the company may have a budget for specific items - like F/A expense - there is no guarantee that the amount budgeted won't be higher or lower than the actual expense for the year. After all, the company can't just say "We've spent all we budgeted so we're not going to pay you the rest of the year." Conversely, you won't hear the company say "We've got money left over from what we budgeted, so the surplus will be added to your next check."[

I see what you are implying, there has to be a guideline or budget...or maintaining a budget..but what they can do what is referred to as projection and what can be paid out based on current and past performance and revenue. unfortunately that may be subject to change if levels(base on the past) are not sustained..of course not knowing what happens in the future and economic situations/economy that may change and simply a concession is deemed necessary(if they are over what is allocated to be budgeted) fuel prices can be used as a recent example and the downturn in the industry.

however sometimes(based on individual companies) when there is actually a surplus or goals have been achieved, a profit sharing is paid out.

The next best, if you're talking strictly about wages, is to compare the pay scales. Most of the other factors that affect the cost of having the average F/A
I believe most have already done this, comparison(at least with pay scales as one issue), that is why it is necessary for both to be brought up to industry standard plus...while also comparing the two groups unique differences and hopefully combining the best (either way regardless of representation) so it will benefit all.. for me personally, I just am not really interested debating who makes more (regarding a competitive sense)..but simply recognizing what has been established in the past, retain, restore and focus on making it better..for not only our group, but the profession as whole..(because we have already merged and the goal now is to move forward).


Have a great day.
 

Latest posts