AA and Labor Negotiations-2020

[ALUS78]

Eastern was a victim of Lorenzo. PanAm had no domestic route system. TWA had Icahn, and Braniff got hammered by Crandall .

Eastern was screwed up.long before Lorenzo and TWA screwed up before Icahn. Pan Am lacked domestic bought national. You all going to get mad but all three also had f@@ked up union work rules tantamount to a state's highway department one guy digging 5 watching

 

[ALUS78]

Braniff actually did themselves in by a massive overexpansion. When they started to bleed cash, they started to offer ridiculous fares in order to raise money quickly. Given that this was dragging all of their competitors into the red, Crandall decided to drop the hammer on them in any fashion that he could.

I was hired in 78 and as a teenager airline industry news wasn't on the top of my list but what you described is what I remember.

 

[ALUS78]

Braniff is an interesting comparison not only because of their explosive expansion and their overall debt load from fleet acquisitions, but also because they'd just finished a brand new headquarters at the edge of DFW, which is across the street from AA's west side hangars (Braniff Place became GTE Place which became Verizon Place, and is now the Thryv Conference Center).

In 1981's annual report, Braniff listed $668M in long term debt and $180M in airplane orders. Adjusted for inflation, that would be ~$2.5B in debt today.

AA's 10x bigger in terms of fleet size, ASM's, etc. than BN was in 1982, but they also have more than 10x that level of debt.

Time to go re-read "Splash of Colors" by John Nance. Great recap of the Braniff collapse... It's out of print but used copies are available on Amazon, or you can check out your local library...

They wanted a Concorde might have even wet leased or some other arrangement. They had 747 dont know where it flew.Crazy expansion. Usair was beginning to become very successful in those days I remember Colodny stressing controlled growth

 

[Kev3188]

Time to go re-read "Splash of Colors" by John Nance. Great recap of the Braniff collapse... It's out of print but used copies are available on Amazon, or you can check out your local library...

+1

If you can find it, it's definitely worth your time!

 

[V.O. Reason]

Braniff is an interesting comparison not only because of their explosive expansion and their overall debt load from fleet acquisitions, but also because they'd just finished a brand new headquarters at the edge of DFW, which is across the street from AA's west side hangars (Braniff Place became GTE Place which became Verizon Place, and is now the Thryv Conference Center).

In 1981's annual report, Braniff listed $668M in long term debt and $180M in airplane orders. Adjusted for inflation, that would be ~$2.5B in debt today.

AA's 10x bigger in terms of fleet size, ASM's, etc. than BN was in 1982, but they also have more than 10x that level of debt.

Time to go re-read "Splash of Colors" by John Nance. Great recap of the Braniff collapse... It's out of print but used copies are available on Amazon, or you can check out your local library...

Agreed Braniff was a mess and what they did to put themselves into the position that eventually lead to their demise they did to themselves.
This situation is far different AA had debt prior to this shutdown but they also were making profits each quarter and were about to make changes to reduce their debt load.
So personally I don’t feel we can compare this to the other airlines mentioned who went out of business.
I’m trying to be optimistic and I do believe AA will survive along with the others, smaller for certain, bankruptcy is possible as well but AA will be around

 

[swamt]

not a scam? you and i paid into this as well..and i'm not counting the stimulus check, which i did not receive.

you're forgetting the additional $600 a week from the feds. that additional $600 a week is good until july 31.

so, 25% of pay + state unemployment + $600 more from feds. in my state, comes out to 25% of pay + $484 from state + $600 from feds. a week.

the way it was explained to us - take a VOLUNTARY leave for 'safety' reasons and the company won't contest an unemployment claim. the assumption made was that since it's a voluntary leave, no unemployment will be paid to you. WRONG. as it turned out, everyone should have taken a leave and filed.

so, those that took a leave are safe at home or working a 2nd cash job, earning more than i am, as i'm working 40 hours a week and dealing with potential exposure virus at work.

not a scam?

give them a bonus also when they come back to work and off unemployment.

Crema, Like I told you, after getting the unemployment it pays better to take the leave. The guys I talk to are saving over 1000.00 per month on fuel, coffee every day, and lunches every day that they no longer have to dish out while staying at home. No 2nd job to work is needed. If someone is staying home for safety, why in the world would ya go do another job and risk exposure?
NO! People taking the offers of leave with the airlines are not getting the extra 600 per pay day. The extra 600 is for the folks that get laid off completely out of work. The airline leave is a reduction in hours, so not approved for the extra 600.
Yes others have also paid into it. You too could have taken the leave and filed, and you still can and the companies won't contest them, but it will be up to your states rules and regs IF you get approved for unemployment benefits. It's still cheaper to stay home even without the extra 600.
It's still not a scam, everyone has the choice to take it or not...

 

[swamt]

Employees do not pay into unemployment. Unemployment is paid by the employer through an unemployment tax

Your taxes you pay also get put into the unemployment program. Part is applied to the insurance in the unemployment benefits.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

People taking the offers of leave with the airlines are not getting the extra 600 per pay day. The extra 600 is for the folks that get laid off completely out of work. The airline leave is a reduction in hours, so not approved for the extra 600.

no. i mean, do you believe i would make that up?

i know of a few who are getting what i posted. part-timers who had their hours reduced and are still working are also getting that additional $600 a week and state unemployment. that's just for having their hours reduced.

it defies logic that you refuse to believe it.

that's why i called it a scam.

this is what's going on, like it or not.

 

[swamt]

It wasn't just Crandall. Upstart Southwest Airlines took Braniff to the woodshed also.

No way! Say it ain't so!! You mean that little ole start up airline called Southwest that no one was worried about? "That little ole startup won't be around here for long, don't worry about them, we got other things to focus on."

 

[swamt]

no. i mean, do you believe i would make that up?

i know of a few who are getting what i posted. part-timers who had their hours reduced and are still working are also getting that additional $600 a week and state unemployment. that's just for having their hours reduced.

it defies logic that you refuse to believe it.

that's why i called it a scam.

this is what's going on, like it or not.

Not refusing to believe it just explaining the state of Texas rules that was told to me and on the TWC websites. If they are getting the extra and still working, then good for them. More power to them. It's still not a scam. The TWC has totally revamped their rules and regs over this COVID crisis so maybe some states are approving the extra 600 too. You may wanna consider doing it. Pull that trigger man, go home, be safer for you and your family. Take the leave, take the 25% and file for unemployment benefits just like the others are that are staying home and unexposed to any risk at workplace. BTW; I will add this. Southwest leave option is titled "ETO" "Emergency Time Off" since ours is not titled as voluntary I assume that is why the guys are getting it. But per the TWC you are eligible if your hours were reduced, you were moved to part time, and if you get laid off completely rather temp or perm.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

You too could have taken the leave and filed, and you still can and the companies won't contest them, but it will be up to your states rules and regs IF you get approved for unemployment benefits. It's still cheaper to stay home even without the extra 600.
It's still not a scam, everyone has the choice to take it or not...

after talking to mngt., i found out that maybe your state is more stringent in throwing money around, my state is very generous.

it's up to the state. again, due to 'covid-19', my state is inclined to approve everything. "make sure to write 'covid-19' all over your free money, errr, unemployment application".

in time, it's up to the state if they will want their money back. i'm sure the weekly fed $600 is gone.

and no, the company and/or union did not advise anyone. all that was said was that the company will not contest any unemployment claim. it was wrongly assumed that taking a voluntary leave would disqualify you from unemployment insurance. turned out not to be the case at all.

currently, leaves are closed. if they open them up again, i will consider it.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Not refusing to believe it just explaining the state of Texas rules that was told to me and on the TWC websites.

exactly. texas is not the usa, just like california, new york and illinois are not the usa.

some states are very sympathetic to all...other states, are not.

 

[swamt]

And it still looks like AA is REFUSING to distance folks on its aircraft as posted by this traveler in this May 18th 2020 video. AA needs to get a smack down by the gov over the money they took. Maybe they will have to pay it all back by NOT following the CDC recommendations. Shame on AA. Same day Delta announced all it's planes will only get to 60% LF capacity and maintain the distancing. Southwest is also following the distancing on aircraft. Why isn't American. Time for the public to start choosing their airline under certain circumstances.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sardines-american-airlines-passenger-says-141924843.html

 

[V.O. Reason]

And it still looks like AA is REFUSING to distance folks on its aircraft as posted by this traveler in this May 18th 2020 video. AA needs to get a smack down by the gov over the money they took. Maybe they will have to pay it all back by NOT following the CDC recommendations. Shame on AA. Same day Delta announced all it's planes will only get to 60% LF capacity and maintain the distancing. Southwest is also following the distancing on aircraft. Why isn't American. Time for the public to start choosing their airline under certain circumstances.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sardines-american-airlines-passenger-says-141924843.html

How about freedom of choice by the passengers.
Hey there’s an idea because last I checked this is still America where people can choose.
There isn’t one passenger who was forced to sit on that plane.
Airlines won’t survive if we can’t start putting more on the planes, government money or not

 

[Rogallo]

How about freedom of choice by the passengers.
Hey there’s an idea because last I checked this is still America where people can choose.
There isn’t one passenger who was forced to sit on that plane.
Airlines won’t survive if we can’t start putting more on the planes, government money or not

+1

Social F'ing media!!