Aa Mechanic Pay Vs Cpi

[mweiss]

It used to take 3 or 3 1/2 years to reach top of scale. Into the 70's for sure. Perhaps even into early eighties. Could be as young as 47.

[post="250120"][/post]​

Interesting. I'm surprised to hear that.

 

[mweiss]

My statement is that productivity has increased and demand is still constant.

Productivity increased, but demand hasn't actually remained constant. Sure, the number of units of work has remained constant, but the quality of work demanded has fallen.

Well it seems that you are of the opinion that the market simply sets the rate and there is little that workers can do to alter that rate.

Perhaps because I am. Unionizing helps to shift the balance of power in negotiation, but it doesn't mean that union workers can price their labor with impunity.

BS. The same arguement could be used if the airline ran a commercial showing pilots or executives.

[post="250178"][/post]​

You bet it can! You think I would make a case that the traveling public cares about the quality of the pilots and executives? All they care about is that they won't die en route. As long as the pilot meets the minimums to do that, all quality above that is surplus to the customer.

 

[Bagbelt]

Currently it's five years to A scale. Up to 1983 it was 3.5. The exception being junior mech or the TRP program in the early 90's. If it had to be done over again it would have prehaps been better to go to a trade union system, where you are hired out of a hall and can work for anyone for the prevailing wage, without seniority tying you down.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

If it had to be done over again it would have prehaps been better to go to a trade union system, where you are hired out of a hall and can work for anyone for the prevailing wage, without seniority tying you down.

[post="250224"][/post]​

How would shift, days off, and vacation be handled?

 

[Hackman]

Currently it's five years to A scale. Up to 1983 it was 3.5. The exception being junior mech or the TRP program in the early 90's. If it had to be done over again it would have prehaps been better to go to a trade union system, where you are hired out of a hall and can work for anyone for the prevailing wage, without seniority tying you down.

[post="250224"][/post]​

System wide seniority like electricians have would be a nice goal once all majors are AMFA for M@R. Once your a jouneyman, you carry your seniority where ever you work, no matter what company or location you choose.

 

[MCI transplant]

System wide seniority like electricians have would be a nice goal once all majors are AMFA for M@R. Once your a jouneyman, you carry your seniority where ever you work, no matter what company or location you choose.

[post="250250"][/post]​

<_< Some people, even AMFA supporters, would have a hemerage! Realizing some of exTWA AMT's would get 100% of their senority!!!! Nea! Never Happen!!!!!

 

[seed]

You're correct in that assumption Xplant, no way would the majority of AMT'sallow someone to carry their seniority to other carriers. Don't believe me? Go back and reread a few replys from some of the AA natives concerning what they felt was due TWA mechanics and related.

 

[AMFAMAN]

You're correct in that assumption Xplant, no way would the majority of AMT'sallow someone to carry their seniority to other carriers. Don't believe me? Go back and reread a few replys from some of the AA natives concerning what they felt was due TWA mechanics and related.

[post="250298"][/post]​

I would be for it, but you're right that it would never fly these days. It would have have good if it was established way back when unions were unions. I still like Dells idea of experience recognition. You can negotiate into the contract that the company will pay you for your experience. If you got more than 5 years experience, you would go to top pay, so you would be paid for your experience. I would also like to see something for vacation accrual and pensions so the hardships of workers starting over won't be so severe.

 

[Bob Owens]

I would be for it, but you're right that it would never fly these days. It would have have good if it was established way back when unions were unions. I still like Dells idea of experience recognition. You can negotiate into the contract that the company will pay you for your experience. If you got more than 5 years experience, you would go to top pay, so you would be paid for your experience. I would also like to see something for vacation accrual and pensions so the hardships of workers starting over won't be so severe.

[post="250343"][/post]​

Well it would take a serious amount of education but I think that most would realize that the idea of a single lifetime employer is something of a fantasy now a days. THey would realize that portable seniority would be the best thing that we could ever do for the profession. It would strip companys of their greatest leverage in gaining concessions-our company specific seniority.

If we had portable seniority mechanic woiuld never agree to another concession. When the company says "If we dont get concessions we will go oput of business>" We can reply "Go ahead, I'll roll my box over to the carrier that takes your place and lose nothing but the wages in between".

With the pay cuts we took its the equivelent of being laid off one out of every four years. In other words working one out of four years for nothing.

The big thing to sell them on it is the experience of EAL, Pan Am and TWA guys.

The biggest problem would be the initial list integration.

The problem with experience recognition is that it would encourage employers to leave experienced mechanics on the street and hire inexperienced mechanics. Instead what we would need is to just set the rate for an A&P. One singular rate period, then since they would be paying the same price for experience as no experience those with experience would get hired first.

We need to put everyone on the same plane, seniority would be for bids and layoffs, otherwise everything else would be the same, pay, vacation, etc. Then employers could not split us all up as they have in the past.

I would go for this in a heartbeat, but I admit I was against giving TWA workers their seniority. Why? Because TWA mechanics had given away everything, they were among the lowest paid, they gave up their pension and for over 10 years they gave the company everything they wanted. The EAL workers on the other hand shut down the company before bringing the standarrd down, sure there was more to it than that but the fact is that the EAL guys fought and came to AA and got nothing, their militancy if anything helped us here at AA. Rewarding the TWA guys by allowing them to bump the EAL guys out to the street would be like rewarding them for being submissive while punishing the EAL guys for fighting.

 

[Bob Owens]

mweiss,Feb 23 2005, 04:42 PM]

You bet it can! You think I would make a case that the traveling public cares about the quality of the pilots and executives? All they care about is that they won't die en route. As long as the pilot meets the minimums to do that, all quality above that is surplus to the customer.


Well it just goes to show that the consumer does not set mechanics wages. SWA charges the least for tickets yet pays more than any of the legacies.

As far as pilots go over the period of time shown in the graph pilot pay has reportedly gone from about double of what a mechanic makes to around six times what a mechanic makes. How would you explain the huge disparity? Werent the same economic forces applied to all airline workers? One critical difference was that pilots were in unions that only represented pilots. Mechanics were not.

 

[mweiss]

Well it just goes to show that the consumer does not set mechanics wages. SWA charges the least for tickets yet pays more than any of the legacies.

Doesn't work across different business plans. However, if someone with WN's business plan managed to get a foot hold and went head-to-head against WN, you'd see the effect there, too.

As far as pilots go over the period of time shown in the graph pilot pay has reportedly gone from about double of what a mechanic makes to around six times what a mechanic makes. How would you explain the huge disparity?

It's easier to outsource maintenance than piloting.

 

[Bob Owens]

Doesn't work across different business plans. However, if someone with WN's business plan managed to get a foot hold and went head-to-head against WN, you'd see the effect there, too.

It's easier to outsource maintenance than piloting.

[post="250376"][/post]​

Well Brittish Air was doing it.

Are you telling me that its hard to find someone who would be willing to fly a 777 for $100k a year?

The fact is that its harder to outsource piloting because the pilots have put in strict explicit scope language that protects their profession. Instead of bleeding the profession out slowly, like the TWU has allowed AA to do to mechanics the pilots are strict about their work. So the company has to either face a complete showdown or leave it as is.

 

[mweiss]

Well Brittish Air was doing it.

I'm sorry, did I say it was impossible, or did I say it was harder to do with the pilots?

Are you telling me that its hard to find someone who would be willing to fly a 777 for $100k a year?

In a comparative sense, yes...you don't exactly go from getting an IFR certification straight to the left seat of a 777. It takes a much larger time and money investment to become a pilot than to become an airline mechanic.

The fact is that its harder to outsource piloting because the pilots have put in strict explicit scope language that protects their profession.

That helps, but the fact is that regulations are much stricter for pilots than mechanics. One could argue over the appropriateness of that fact, and that's what usually degrades into the "who's better, pilots or mechanics" argument; I'm not going there.

 

[aafsc]

Well it would take a serious amount of education but I think that most would realize that the idea of a single lifetime employer is something of a fantasy now a days. THey would realize that portable seniority would be the best thing that we could ever do for the profession. It would strip companys of their greatest leverage in gaining concessions-our company specific seniority.

If we had portable seniority mechanic woiuld never agree to another concession. When the company says "If we dont get concessions we will go oput of business>" We can reply "Go ahead, I'll roll my box over to the carrier that takes your place and lose nothing but the wages in between".

With the pay cuts we took its the equivelent of being laid off one out of every four years. In other words working one out of four years for nothing.

The big thing to sell them on it is the experience of EAL, Pan Am and TWA guys.

The biggest problem would be the initial list integration.

The problem with experience recognition is that it would encourage employers to leave experienced mechanics on the street and hire inexperienced mechanics. Instead what we would need is to just set the rate for an A&P. One singular rate period, then since they would be paying the same price for experience as no experience those with experience would get hired first.

We need to put everyone on the same plane, seniority would be for bids and layoffs, otherwise everything else would be the same, pay, vacation, etc. Then employers could not split us all up as they have in the past.

I would go for this in a heartbeat, but I admit I was against giving TWA workers their seniority. Why? Because TWA mechanics had given away everything, they were among the lowest paid, they gave up their pension and for over 10 years they gave the company everything they wanted. The EAL workers on the other hand shut down the company before bringing the standarrd down, sure there was more to it than that but the fact is that the EAL guys fought and came to AA and got nothing, their militancy if anything helped us here at AA. Rewarding the TWA guys by allowing them to bump the EAL guys out to the street would be like rewarding them for being submissive while punishing the EAL guys for fighting.

[post="250366"][/post]​

I agree with Bob. I would favor portable seniority for everyone but only if it started from the beginning of airline unionism. That way, nobody would have lost out (Braniff, EAL, PanAm etc.) To change now would be unfair to those earlier employees. It should have started when all the airlines were on equal footing during regulation because no one knew back then who would strike/fail/liquidate, etc. But now, like Bob says, rewarding one group by giving them seniority after they continually lowered the bar thereby punishing those who fought and gave all to keep the standards high would be very unfair. If this were to happen the EAL people would have gotten screwed twice. First, by sacraficing all to defeat Lorenzo and second by losing their jobs at AA to those who capitulated. Looking at US Air it seems that the same scenario is playing out. They were willing to give the company everything it wanted (more paycuts, higher medical contributions, and loss of pension and scope) in order to keep the company going so they can be "saved". Of course, if a transaction does occur at US Air, they (like the TWA people) will want to be rewarded for their capitulation and want their seniority. (Especially USA320 pilot in the left seat of a UA747-400)

 

[Hackman]

<_< Some people, even AMFA supporters, would have a hemerage! Realizing some of exTWA AMT's would get 100% of their senority!!!! Nea! Never Happen!!!!!

[post="250271"][/post]​

I did not mean to open old wounds here, but when our own AMR Eagle AMT's come over to AA, they do not carry their Eagle seniority to AA. It would be extremely unfair to award TWA employees full seniority and not Eagle, right?

Also as Bob stated, rewarding TWA for capitulating to Uncle Carl, and hanging out the EAL fighters to dry for taking down Lorenzo would also be very wrong.

I know portable seniority will never happen, but its a nice thought. B)