ALPA/USAPA Topic for week of 1/24 to 1/31

[exB717Flyer]

If not, why dontcha ask the formerly "represented by ALPA" TWA pilots.

You really don't understand what happened to TWA. We had the Allegheny-Mohawk protections but were forced to relinquish them in bankruptcy court. If we hadn't the judge would've done so for us. This allowed the APA to walk all over us. The screwing by Woerth et al came later when we needed leverage and he didn't even try.

 

[flyinawa]

So would protective fences...and..the west position on those was/is?...Refresh my memory :blink: It's never been my thinking to dump west pilots out of their situations. A little reason within the west position would've certainly helped things along, but has never been seen on these boards..unless you consider such gems as "Ho Ho Ho St Nic is coming to town"/etc/ad nauseum as providing fertile ground for any efforts at compromise. We'll have to eventually work things out.

First point of business though = Let's VOTE!

Eventually have to work things out? Didn't we do that once already? Oh yeah. That's right. We DID have very different ideas on how the lists should be merged. We COULDN'T resolve the differences internally. We DID go to arbitration. The USAirways MEC and the AWA MEC both TRIED to get distinctively different sides of the bell-curve. And an INDEPENDENT party DID use a logical and reasonable method "WORK THINGS OUT".

NOW you ask West for compromise? NOW you want to use the NIC award as a STARTING place for negotiation? And what, we just keep offering new and better overtures to the East until one of them seems acceptable? Get real. Why should we negotiate against ourselves to make the list palatable enough for you? We already negotiated against the East and suffered concessions on the Nic Award ourselves.

Now you think the West should "compromise". Get real.

 

[Phoenix]

I couldn't agree more, wish I knew what the west position really is........A vote we will have.

There is no West position or East position in the election of the CBA. The NMB has ruled there is one. And since it is a secret ballot there will be no evidence of an "East" position or "West" position.

All attempts to characterize divided positions after the election will seem to be merely an attempt at continuing a division rather than moving on out as one.

 

[EastUS]

Now you think the West should "compromise". Get real.

I'm absolutely fine with "Get real". Alpa = Life under Nic and your extremely "reasonable" position.

Let's VOTE!

 

[Phoenix]

You really don't understand what happened to TWA. We had the Allegheny-Mohawk protections but were forced to relinquish them in bankruptcy court. If we hadn't the judge would've done so for us. This allowed the APA to walk all over us. The screwing by Woerth et al came later when we needed leverage and he didn't even try.

Twa was forced to relinquish their Allegheny-Mohawk protections?

If you didn't the judge would do it for you?

By chance, was it the ALPA experts who told you that? What did the ALPA experts tell you the boogeyman judge was going to give you instead of Allegheny-Mohawk?

 

[767jetz]

Twa was forced to relinquish their Allegheny-Mohawk protections?

If you didn't the judge would do it for you?

By chance, was it the ALPA experts who told you that? What did the ALPA experts tell you the boogeyman judge was going to give you instead of Allegheny-Mohawk?

It was a pre-condition of AA's purchase of TWA. Get it? Give up your claims to dispute seniority and submit to what we give you, or there is no deal. Not saying it was fair. But that was their position. (The company, not APA.) And they were smart to do so as they had no civil war to deal with. Plan B was to let TWA go CH7 and cherry pick assets.

There was no judge or AM. AA simply laid it out and said deal or no deal. TWA ALPA could not, after the fact, dispute what they voluntarily agreed to. (Sorta like binding arbitration)

 

[AAA73Pilot]

PHLBUS
I would like to send you a PM. The first try was unsuccessful. You are either not as you appear or you need to enable your PM's option. THX.

 

[AWA320]

USAPA MISLEADING THEIR FOLLOWERS JUST LIKE THE EAST MEC DID! LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES DON'T REPEAT THEM. DOH IS GONE FOR GOOD NEVER TO EVER BEEN USED AGAIN. THE ONLY LOSS WILL BE YOUR CAREER NOW DO YOU REALLY WANT THAT?


ALPA-Backed Seniority Integration Legislation Protects Pilots, Contracts and ALPA Merger Policy. It Does Not Provide or Require a Date of Hire Integration.

ALPA, along with the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) and the AFL-CIO’s Transportation Trades Department, recently worked closely with Labor’s allies on Capitol Hill to enact seniority integration legislation that protects ALPA pilots’ career interests and the Association’s merger policies and labor agreements in future merger integrations.

This legislation, which was signed by the President into law in late December, ensures that if an ALPA pilot group merges with an ALPA pilot group, the Association’s internal merger policies and the pilots’ collectively-bargained merger integration provisions will continue to govern as before. If an ALPA pilot group merges with a non-ALPA pilot group, the ALPA pilots involved will also retain the hard-won labor protective merger provisions of their collective bargaining agreements.

However, the legislation also guarantees such pilots, and all unionized employees under the Railway Labor Act, at least a minimum standard of merger protection in future transactions by ensuring a “fair and equitable†seniority integration process under the Allegheny-Mohawk merger provisions. These provisions, like ALPA Merger Policy, provide a process that includes negotiation, and if necessary, arbitration concerning seniority integration.

Contrary to the unfounded claims made by the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA), this new law does NOT provide for, or guarantee, “date of hire†or any other longevity-based integration or, for that matter, any other specific standard of integration in seniority integration arbitrations. In fact, the integration standards that would be applied by arbitrators would be similar under both ALPA Merger Policy and the Allegheny-Mohawk seniority integration procedures provided for in this legislation. The standards applied by arbitrators under both procedures have typically included consideration of career expectations for the pilots at the two carriers at the time of the merger, and have been implemented through ratios, as well as date of hire and other methodologies.

Although there are procedural differences (such as varying timelines) between ALPA Merger Policy and the Allegheny-Mohawk process, the only other major difference is that management may be directly involved in the negotiations and arbitration process under Allegheny-Mohawk, but not under ALPA Merger Policy. That difference—inserting management in the process—is not a helpful change for pilots.

Simply put, the Allegheny-Mohawk legislation does NOT require or even refer to date of hire or length of service integration. But you don’t have to take ALPA National’s word on it. Merger counsel independently retained by the US Airways MEC has stated clearly that the Allegheny-Mohawk procedures required in the legislation “make no mention of date of hire methodology. [This process] provides only for ‘a fair and equitable manner’ of seniority integration. It carries no more preference, or disfavor, of date of hire integration than does ALPA Merger Policy.†Merger counsel independently retained by the America West MEC has taken the same position, concluding: “Allegheny-Mohawk procedures give no preference to date of hire (or, for that matter, to any particular integration methodology). Like Merger Policy, they don’t mention date of hire at all.â€

USAPA is simply wrong when it alleges that “in order to reap the benefit†of the new legislation, US Airways pilots “must remove themselves from ALPA.†The truth is that in the absence of a negotiated seniority integration agreement, under both procedures it is up to the arbitrator to decide which standards to apply to accomplish the integration

You should ask why USAPA is not providing accurate information on this important issue, one that could significantly affect you in a future transaction.

This legislation was originally proposed by AFA and stemmed from the inequities that arose when the independent unions that represent the flight attendants and pilots of American Airlines forced the flight attendants and pilots of the former Trans World Airlines to forgo a merger seniority arbitration process and suffer imposed seniority terms that disfavored these groups. ALPA insisted upon legislative provisions for protection of ALPA Merger Policy in an ALPA-ALPA merger and for retention of any additional protections for ALPA pilots beyond Allegheny-Mohawk procedures in ALPA labor agreements. The ALPA-drafted language on these key provisions was adopted by Congress and signed by the President. This important legislative success demonstrates ALPA’s leadership role on Capitol Hill.

 

[EastUS]

It was a pre-condition of AA's purchase of TWA. Get it? Give up your claims to dispute seniority and submit to what we give you, or there is no deal. Not saying it was fair. But that was their position. (The company, not APA.) And they were smart to do so as they had no civil war to deal with. Plan B was to let TWA go CH7 and cherry pick assets.

There was no judge or AM. AA simply laid it out and said deal or no deal. TWA ALPA could not, after the fact, dispute what they voluntarily agreed to. (Sorta like binding arbitration)

Wow! So...this was truly a really "good deal" for them by Alpa standards then? I'm absolutely "certain" that you must be 100% correct on what the company would/might have chosen to do otherwise...after all = you're from Alpa.. :blink:

 

[PHLBUS]

So I guess we really don't know how WE or WEST is going to vote (secret ballot). Then most of the posts are emotional rhetoric. so at the end of the day things may not go the way we want them to go...just like the ST. NIC AWARD...Are ALPA supporters (east and west) getting false hopes....and/or is USAPA giving our pilots false hopes aswell...

 

[Phoenix]

It was a pre-condition of AA's purchase of TWA. Get it? Give up your claims to dispute seniority and submit to what we give you, or there is no deal. Not saying it was fair. But that was their position. (The company, not APA.) And they were smart to do so as they had no civil war to deal with. Plan B was to let TWA go CH7 and cherry pick assets.

There was no judge or AM. AA simply laid it out and said deal or no deal. TWA ALPA could not, after the fact, dispute what they voluntarily agreed to. (Sorta like binding arbitration)

Sure I get it. TWA was given the proposition that it was either abandon all rights to seniority or go Chapter 7.

Doesn't answer the question, Who took responsibility to answer the question? So then who made the decision to "give up your claims to dispute seniority"? Did the membership make the decision (in the way of a vote) to abandon their seniority? Or was it similar to the unilateral decision to give up the pension that the ALPA AAA MEC abandoned?

 

[EastUS]

USAPA MISLEADING THEIR FOLLOWERS JUST LIKE THE EAST MEC DID! LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES DON'T REPEAT THEM. DOH IS GONE FOR GOOD NEVER TO EVER BEEN USED AGAIN. THE ONLY LOSS WILL BE YOUR CAREER NOW DO YOU REALLY WANT THAT?


ALPA-Backed Seniority Integration Legislation Protects Pilots, Contracts and ALPA Merger Policy. It Does Not Provide or Require a Date of Hire Integration.

Not sure which part's the funniest...but I'm leaning towards "ALPA-Backed Seniority Integration Legislation Protects Pilots,..... ."

"THE ONLY LOSS WILL BE YOUR CAREER NOW DO YOU REALLY WANT THAT?" Comes in a close second though I never realized that you had such awesome power :blink:

 

[sharktooth]

You really don't understand what happened to TWA. We had the Allegheny-Mohawk protections but were forced to relinquish them in bankruptcy court. If we hadn't the judge would've done so for us. This allowed the APA to walk all over us. The screwing by Woerth et al came later when we needed leverage and he didn't even try.

I believe ALPA fed TWA pilots all wrong information. Another reason to dump ALPA.

A judge cannot void federal law. Will.not.happen. He/she can modify contractual language, only, and even then, only for the duration of the bk. Once you emerge from bk, you are then protected in job actions if the judge-ruled changes are not changed back and you want them so, one of the few exceptions to protections generally thought available -only- during Section 6. Very few understand this issue. ALPA has done little to expand pilots understandings in this area.

 

[EastUS]

So I guess we really don't know how WE or WEST is going to vote (secret ballot). Then most of the posts are emotional rhetoric. so at the end of the day things may not go the way we want them to go...just like the ST. NIC AWARD...Are ALPA supporters (east and west) getting false hopes....and/or is USAPA giving our pilots false hopes aswell...

`

The future's always an unkown. Any choice ever made in life involves risk. I'd suggest that a suitable primary question to ask one's self is: Am I happy with the representation and results I've received under Alpa?

 

[PHLBUS]

I may have my settings wrong....how's this