Delta's upcoming order for wide-bodies

[topDawg]

yes, DL needs to be doing RR engines in-house.

DL's network simply is not going to have 350-400 seat aircraft in it.

that was obvious from the earliest moments of the RFP and DL's restructuring of the Pacific but some wanted to continue to hold onto the idea of big jets.

keep in mind the 50 new Airbii plus the 10 330s replace a very large chunk of the 744 and 763 fleet by number of aircraft... and we still haven't heard about used aircraft which could well be part of the plan.

and there are still some fairly young 763s that will be in the fleet for 10 plus years or more.

Delta seems to be the only US airline that can't use 77W sized airplanes. 
 
 
But having said that, again they are using them. Delta Air Lines operated by Air France. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

you do realize that the 339 is larger than any aircraft DL uses to Europe other than the few rare flights that the 747 does to Europe?

the bigger concern is that there is no small widebody.

without a small widbody, there simply is no way for a number of thin routes to be maintained.

the economics of some of the large widebodies might be favorable but there are a lot of routes that just won't work with a 300 seat airplane.

you better hope that DL has all kinds of tricks to keep as many 763ERs as possible going.

 

[traderjake]

http://leehamnews.com/2014/11/19/airbus-wins-delta-wide-body-order/
 
 
Sad day for Delta and Boeing....
 
25 A339 and 25 A359

 
Sad for Boeing.
 
Why sad for Delta?

 

[metopower]

Dawag.. Thanks for thinking of us. I just don't see things the way you do concerning AF/KL. Though the LR is my airplane I don't see how the Boeing deal made any sense. There will be manny used 77ers out there and the LR is over kill on many DL routes as far as lift is concerned. Great distance and a dream to fly but the ER can get the job done ok.The 773 is the perfect 744 replacement ..but if the it is too big it is too big. Just because it looks great at the gate doesn't mean it makes more money for the company. I also had heard that it was a mixture of 350's and 789's but the delivery dates make more sense when you take into account the used aircraft market.

 

[topDawg]

you do realize that the 339 is larger than any aircraft DL uses to Europe other than the few rare flights that the 747 does to Europe?

the bigger concern is that there is no small widebody.

without a small widbody, there simply is no way for a number of thin routes to be maintained.

the economics of some of the large widebodies might be favorable but there are a lot of routes that just won't work with a 300 seat airplane.

you better hope that DL has all kinds of tricks to keep as many 763ERs as possible going.

the 339 is a 333 with wingtips and a Trent 1000 on it. its the exact same fuselage. So its not any bigger than a 333. 
 
and It is what it is. DALPA will in-force its scope agreements or they wont.  If they do then Delta can't just do whatever they want. You can't grasp that, but its not as simple as "oh we don't have the planes". 
 
 
and again the 787-8 is a 763 replacement. No tricks to keep the 7ERs going. Most of the fleet has plenty of life left in them. Assuming zero growth on a capacity bases this order would replace just under half the ER fleet. 
 
 
but hey, good to see you being so smug out Delta getting smaller and smaller. 
 
 

Dawag.. Thanks for thinking of us. I just don't see things the way you do concerning AF/KL. Though the LR is my airplane I don't see how the Boeing deal made any sense. There will be manny used 77ers out there and the LR is over kill on many DL routes as far as lift is concerned. Great distance and a dream to fly but the ER can get the job done ok.The 773 is the perfect 744 replacement ..but if the it is too big it is too big. Just because it looks great at the gate doesn't mean it makes more money for the company. I also had heard that it was a mixture of 350's and 789's but the delivery dates make more sense when you take into account the used aircraft market.

not think of just you, thinking about all of us. 
 
DALPA scope has a direct effect on every employee at Delta. The more flying yall hand of to AF/KL/KE/AZ/CZ/MU/VA/VS etc. means less airplanes and less mechanics. (and ACS and FAs) (same for the bottom end.) 
 
on the LR, I don't think Delta should by many more. I have always thought they should add 10 more so they have a little bit more flexibility but for the most part this order is very logical.  However, I don't believe Delta can't make money with a 77W. I believe they simply don't need the plane when they can let other fly it for them. AF/KL for example have 45 of them. (+8) KE has 13 (+12) of them. Virgin Oz has them. Call it what you want to call it but it is somewhat amazing to me that Anderson would "order the 787-10 tomorrow" but now anything close to that size is "to big". My guess is he is expects DALPA to cave (as the norm.) on JV scope and slowly turn Delta into Northwest. (AMS/CDG/LHR/FRA flights and thats it). 
 
 
 
but we will find out in a few months....... 

 

[FWAAA]

Delta seems to be the only US airline that can't use 77W sized airplanes. 
 
But having said that, again they are using them. Delta Air Lines operated by Air France. 

I have long suspected (but I have no proof) that AA's surprise order for 20 77Ws was in some part related to Boeing's failure to deliver the 787-9 on a timely basis.   AA ordered 42 787-9s in Oct 2008 and then surprised everyone with its 77W order in 2011.    My assumption (really a wild-ass guess) is that Boeing made AA a very good deal on those planes - planes that Boeing could deliver quickly.  Arpey mentioned in 2009 or 2010 that AA and Boeing were discussing compensation for the 787 delay, but then neither party ever mentioned it again.     And then, out of the blue,  AA orders some 77Ws.  
 
Of course,  AA has some high-volume routes, like LHR and GRU, both of which are still capacity-controlled, on which AA has used the 77Ws.   
 
As fuel prices have come down, and with some predictions of long-term fuel price moderation, maybe AA keeps those 77Ws longer than I suspected.   Obviously, if fuel prices spike again, and look to stay high, the 77Ws may be short-timers.   

 

[topDawg]

I have long suspected (but I have no proof) that AA's surprise order for 20 77Ws was in some part related to Boeing's failure to deliver the 787-9 on a timely basis.   AA ordered 42 787-9s in Oct 2008 and then surprised everyone with its 77W order in 2011.    My assumption (really a wild-ass guess) is that Boeing made AA a very good deal on those planes - planes that Boeing could deliver quickly.  Arpey mentioned in 2009 or 2010 that AA and Boeing were discussing compensation for the 787 delay, but then neither party ever mentioned it again.     And then, out of the blue,  AA orders some 77Ws.  
 
Of course,  AA has some high-volume routes, like LHR and GRU, both of which are still capacity-controlled, on which AA has used the 77Ws.   
 
As fuel prices have come down, and with some predictions of long-term fuel price moderation, maybe AA keeps those 77Ws longer than I suspected.   Obviously, if fuel prices spike again, and look to stay high, the 77Ws may be short-timers.   

This reminds me off the old Delta got 60% off the 739s because the 787 was late. 
 
 
I highly question if AA who only had an MOU not even an order got enough compensation to make a difference. Delta got enough compensation for a small MTOW bump on the 737-800 fleet for example. AA probably got a good deal on the 777, but i bet it had little if anything to do with the 787 MOU. 
 
AA didn't order the 787 till 2013, it had a MOU signed in 2008. (and you also have to remember AA doesn't own its 787 fleet.GE does. I am not sure if AA is using slots they had with the MOU or if they are using GE slots for the aircraft.) 
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/15/us-americanairlines-planes-idUSBRE90E01220130115

 

[WorldTraveler]

Dawg
R u sure the 339 is not bigger? Double check

Also DL said the economics of the 788 don't work.

 

[eolesen]

AA didn't order the 787 till 2013, it had a MOU signed in 2008.

Not quite.

What AA executed in 2008 was a purchase agreement providing purchase rights to receive aircraft with as little as 18 months notice to firm those orders. So they were most likely AA delivery positions which Boeing was free to move to other customers if AA didn't meet the firming dates for the respective positions. This is how they've done business with Boeing since the first 737 and 777 orders back in 1997 or 1998.

AA's first delivery rights were for 2012 deliveries. It may not have been much, but my guess is they had compensation due for the delays.

 

[topDawg]

Dawg
R u sure the 339 is not bigger? Double check

Also DL said the economics of the 788 don't work.

yes I'm sure. 
the 338 is a 332 with T7000 and new wingtips 
the 339 is a 333 with T7000 and new wingtips. 
 
Airbus was saying the 339 will be able to hold 6 extra people (in Y) if you go with the space saver config. (small lavs, small galleys) but my understanding is that config would be better for a regional type operation more so than 10-12 hour flying.
 
but yes, the fuselages are the same.   The wing is the same, but they are changing the wing twist just a bit. Other than that some small changes but its pretty much a little bit heavier 333, same engine thrust and a small range boost (~200nm). Same MTOW 242t. 
 
 
and when/where has Delta said the 788 wont work? the 789 is better for MOST of Delta's needs. However a small 788 fleet (15 or so frames) to do the smallest TATL routes makes complete sense. 
 

Not quite.

What AA executed in 2008 was a purchase agreement providing purchase rights to receive aircraft with as little as 18 months notice to firm those orders. So they were most likely AA delivery positions which Boeing was free to move to other customers if AA didn't meet the firming dates for the respective positions. This is how they've done business with Boeing since the first 737 and 777 orders back in 1997 or 1998.

AA's first delivery rights were for 2012 deliveries. It may not have been much, but my guess is they had compensation due for the delays.

And they probably got something, I just don't think it would add up to billions to get a great deal on 20 777s. 
 
and FWIW Delta has (maybe had now) the same deal for 777s. They had 30 or so options at one point and could order the plane and have it in 18-24 months. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL said the 788 is too expensive per seat. It was never at option in this RFP

The 339 will have at least as many seats as the 333 which means DL will be building its TATL network around 300 seat aircraft.

The 763 seats are less. Even the 788 is larger

 

[jcw]

Great purchase on DL's part best option of old aircraft design with the A330 nice to see DL copy AA by using the 330 since US was the first US 330 operator

 

[jcw]

you do realize that the 339 is larger than any aircraft DL uses to Europe other than the few rare flights that the 747 does to Europe?the bigger concern is that there is no small widebody.without a small widbody, there simply is no way for a number of thin routes to be maintained.the economics of some of the large widebodies might be favorable but there are a lot of routes that just won't work with a 300 seat airplane.you better hope that DL has all kinds of tricks to keep as many 763ERs as possible going.

You do realize that once again you have no idea what you are talking about. It's clear on Airbus website they state the 339 is the 333 fuselage- so it will not be the largest aircraft DL will be flying to Europe - it will just have more seats squeezed into the

Much to everyone's surprise you can't fanatise this as a larger aircraft - sorry about reality getting in the way of your narrative

 

[topDawg]

DL said the 788 is too expensive per seat. It was never at option in this RFP

The 339 will have at least as many seats as the 333 which means DL will be building its TATL network around 300 seat aircraft.

The 763 seats are less. Even the 788 is larger

the memo employees got said A330-200/300/800/900. 787 all models, A350XWB, all models, 777-300ER. Pratt, GE and Rollers engines. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
having said that, in other news. "Rolls-Royce said on Friday that the order for engines also included the provision of long-term post-delivery services as part of a "TotalCare" support package." 
 
Any of you engine shop guys know what that means? Ah yes..... Better bid the CFM56 or CF34 shop. You guys in the 4000 and CF6 shop are screwed....... (note I will say that if the 4000 shop gets the USAF contract Delta will keep it around. CF6 is going to be a dead engine in 5-10 years.) 
Writing was already on the wall for the 2037 and 219 shops. 
 
 
I would be praying that the TotalCare contract mean rollers is about to pay 50% for a new test cell. However, If that was the case it would have likely been announced with the engine order deal. oh well, just remember Delta has your back
 
 
 
And the employees at Singapore airlines       
 
 
 
 
*for those who do not know what TotalCare is, it is basically a power by the hour deal. Delta has them on the GE90, CF6-10E, CFM56-5A, PW4168 and sounds like the TrentXWB and Trent7000. Rollers will overhaul and support the engines. As of now SAESL is the only company that I know of that has a XWB shop. AF has been fighting with Rolls for a XWB shop and was making progress (because they actually care about the MRO side of the house unlike others) on a deal for its own overhaul shop outside of the RR network. LH has also said it would open a XWB line if/when they order.
I think Rolls was working with someone in the UAE for a line too. Not sure what happened with that.  
 
The deal for the Trent 800 is, to much understanding a Delta worked out with TAESL/America. Originally it was a swap deal. AA did the T800s and Delta did AA's 2037s. I am not sure how the deal works now that AA doesn't have 2037s anymore.  

 

[BABABOOY]

Interesting note that Delta is replacing 763's with higher passenger capacity A339's.
Someone on a different side made a very interesting observation. And goes with the rumour
of either an expanded EC cabin or the newly Delta trademark of Comfort+ cabin.  
3 or perhaps 4 class service would bring down the capacity of these a/c.