DL expands SEA further with SEA-SFO flights
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WorldTraveler
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except that the basis of DL's interest in AS was to feed DL's international operations on the west coast. NW had a longstanding relationship with AS that involved feeding NW's int'l ops at SEA.
Do you happen to recall that DL execs went out to SEA to put on a great PR stunt with AS regarding a deepened relationship and closer cooperation not that long ago and within a couple weeks, AS announced the same type of expanded agreement with AA
DL also said multiple times even publicly that DL was not going to be in a partnership with a carrier that was providing feed to any of DL's competitors and yet that is exactly what AS has done
They are a codeshare whore that wants to have as many partners as possible and yet couldn't provide DL, their largest partner, with enough seats to support DL's int'l operations.
DL had no choice based on AS' actions but to start its own SEA domestic operation.
AS has no one to blame except themselves for now having a major competitive hub in its home.
The ship has sailed and AS' actions have resulted in a significant change in their strategic future and a very likely rearrangement of market strength on the west coast.
All AS had to do was provide DL with the feed DL wanted to support its own int'l flights which didn't compete with AS.
DOT data supports DL's public statements that DL's int'l operation at SEA has largely been supported by DL's own domestic flights and the local market.
IN order to grow the int'l operation further, DL has made the irrevocable decision to add its own domestic flights including into key west coast markets north of SEA such as to Alaska and Vancouver that are less about feeding the int'l operation and more about operating a balanced hub.
And it also doesn't change that as much as the internet crowd wants to argue otherwise, AA can offer nothing more to AS or vice versa that they can't already do or that AS couldn't have had with DL.
And no one has addressed that AA's pilots want less, not more cooperation with AA's domestic codeshare partners.
DL has one of the fastest growing hubs at SEA among all US carrier hubs and the movement of DL's mainline fleet to the west coast will only ensure that the number of DL seats at SEA will continue to grow.
AS' decision to be a codeshare whore will likely go down as one of the biggest strategic failures a niche airline could have made.... and as E has noted there are few of those niche airlines left.
Do you happen to recall that DL execs went out to SEA to put on a great PR stunt with AS regarding a deepened relationship and closer cooperation not that long ago and within a couple weeks, AS announced the same type of expanded agreement with AA
DL also said multiple times even publicly that DL was not going to be in a partnership with a carrier that was providing feed to any of DL's competitors and yet that is exactly what AS has done
They are a codeshare whore that wants to have as many partners as possible and yet couldn't provide DL, their largest partner, with enough seats to support DL's int'l operations.
DL had no choice based on AS' actions but to start its own SEA domestic operation.
AS has no one to blame except themselves for now having a major competitive hub in its home.
The ship has sailed and AS' actions have resulted in a significant change in their strategic future and a very likely rearrangement of market strength on the west coast.
All AS had to do was provide DL with the feed DL wanted to support its own int'l flights which didn't compete with AS.
DOT data supports DL's public statements that DL's int'l operation at SEA has largely been supported by DL's own domestic flights and the local market.
IN order to grow the int'l operation further, DL has made the irrevocable decision to add its own domestic flights including into key west coast markets north of SEA such as to Alaska and Vancouver that are less about feeding the int'l operation and more about operating a balanced hub.
And it also doesn't change that as much as the internet crowd wants to argue otherwise, AA can offer nothing more to AS or vice versa that they can't already do or that AS couldn't have had with DL.
And no one has addressed that AA's pilots want less, not more cooperation with AA's domestic codeshare partners.
DL has one of the fastest growing hubs at SEA among all US carrier hubs and the movement of DL's mainline fleet to the west coast will only ensure that the number of DL seats at SEA will continue to grow.
AS' decision to be a codeshare whore will likely go down as one of the biggest strategic failures a niche airline could have made.... and as E has noted there are few of those niche airlines left.
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WorldTraveler
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you do realize that is what companies do in the free-enterprise system?
absent antitrust immunity (which domestic airlines cannot have with each other) AS is a competitor to every other airline, domestic or int'l. Without ATI which AS could apply for with one or more int'l airlines if they wanted to, AS is also prohibited from cooperating with foreign airlines any more than it already can with AA and/or DL.
absent antitrust immunity (which domestic airlines cannot have with each other) AS is a competitor to every other airline, domestic or int'l. Without ATI which AS could apply for with one or more int'l airlines if they wanted to, AS is also prohibited from cooperating with foreign airlines any more than it already can with AA and/or DL.
FrugalFlyerv2.0
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WorldTraveler said:
Jetblue is a codeshare whore too. Will that go down in history as one of their biggest strategic failures?
In the Southwest forum you've stated that WN (& their supporters) are spreading manure ...
If that's the case, then what would you call your your diatribes about the greatness of DL? Filling the septic tanks at a sewage treatment plant?
Kev3188
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And vice versa, of course. There was also a lot of 2- way feed at places like PDX as well.WorldTraveler said:
Do you happen to recall how hollow many of us thought that rang?
Couldn't, or refused to bend to DL's will?
I'm sure there'll be pressure on the Eskimo's bottom line, but I don't think this puts them in the flat spin you claim it will.
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no one said anything about a flat out spin, did they? perhaps you can highlight that for us if you think otherwise.
AS has been a high margin airline that has succeeded because of high growth, above average fares in its key markets compared to the rest of the west coast, and well above average market share in its key markets.
DL's moves challenge a lot of the basic ingredients that have helped make AS succeed. It isn't at all assumptive to recognize that AS' business model has changed because of AS' own decision not to cooperate with its most valuable interline partner who has now chosen to become a direct competitor.
remember that analysts spent about 1/3 of AS' more recent earnings calls talking about the AS-DL relationship and the increased capacity in AS' markets - and that was before most of the new schedules that DL is starting this summer have even been flown.
I suspect there will be a whole lot more comments from both AS and DL on the subject in the next several earnings calls.
The fact that DL continues to increase frequency and gauge in key markets such as SEA-LAX, ANC, and HNL says that DL is not afraid of putting too much capacity into the market.
PDX-NRT has long been focused on connections at NRT instead of at PDX just as the PDX-Europe flights are.
As for B6, they didn't have a relationship with DL and AA has dumped their relationship. It is far different to codewhore with a bunch of foreign airlines but quite different to expect to do the same with domestic airlines.
AA is no more interested in codesharing with AS to the detriment of its own network. No one has yet to say why AA and AS wouldn't have the same problems that AS and DL have.
AS has been a high margin airline that has succeeded because of high growth, above average fares in its key markets compared to the rest of the west coast, and well above average market share in its key markets.
DL's moves challenge a lot of the basic ingredients that have helped make AS succeed. It isn't at all assumptive to recognize that AS' business model has changed because of AS' own decision not to cooperate with its most valuable interline partner who has now chosen to become a direct competitor.
remember that analysts spent about 1/3 of AS' more recent earnings calls talking about the AS-DL relationship and the increased capacity in AS' markets - and that was before most of the new schedules that DL is starting this summer have even been flown.
I suspect there will be a whole lot more comments from both AS and DL on the subject in the next several earnings calls.
The fact that DL continues to increase frequency and gauge in key markets such as SEA-LAX, ANC, and HNL says that DL is not afraid of putting too much capacity into the market.
PDX-NRT has long been focused on connections at NRT instead of at PDX just as the PDX-Europe flights are.
As for B6, they didn't have a relationship with DL and AA has dumped their relationship. It is far different to codewhore with a bunch of foreign airlines but quite different to expect to do the same with domestic airlines.
AA is no more interested in codesharing with AS to the detriment of its own network. No one has yet to say why AA and AS wouldn't have the same problems that AS and DL have.
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- #654
since DL doesn't serve those cities from SEA, never said they would, and there is little int'l feed from those cities to Asia, this has what to do with DL and its SEA buildup?
eolesen
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Gee, I guess AS's award winning customer service and great relationship with their customer base had absolutely nothing to do with their success...WorldTraveler said:
WorldTraveler said:
Did AS decide not to cooperate, or not to capitulate? All the evidence points to DL strong-arming AS here.
I doubt you're the most objective voice of reason on what AA is or isn't interested in...WorldTraveler said:
AS and AA have been partners for almost 35 years. It started when AA assumed operation of the interchange flights that BN had with them (DCA-ORD-SEA-ANC-FAI and IAH-DFW-SEA-ANC-FAI), and Because of that, AS has been part of AAdvantage far longer than they'd been partners with WorldPerks.
To the degree that AS and AA operate largely outside each others strongest markets, there's no reason why they wouldn't want to partner. Certainly, AA isn't about to open a hub in the Pacific Northwest, and it's unlikely that AS will be expanding east of the Rockies.
DL could have made the partnership work, but recent history indicates they don't have a lot of patience for partners they can't influence.
700UW said:
Not a direct shot at DL like the addition of ATL-PDX and changes in elite benefits, or adding EQM accrual on all partners. Airlines add and cut flights routinely, you linking this to DL-AS debacles just shows a weak understanding of the situation and this industry.
Josh
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WorldTraveler
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AS and DL are competitors and they legally are required to do so.
it doesn't really matter what relationship AS has had with anyone.... they have no legally protected relationships with any carriers that are anything other than competitors.
But if what AS is doing in DL's markets has nothing to do with the relationship, then neither does DL's growth of its own domestic operations in SEA.
it doesn't really matter what relationship AS has had with anyone.... they have no legally protected relationships with any carriers that are anything other than competitors.
But if what AS is doing in DL's markets has nothing to do with the relationship, then neither does DL's growth of its own domestic operations in SEA.
Kev3188
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(sigh)WorldTraveler said:
Yeah, I know, but in my direct experience, it was closer to "even" than one might've thought.
Bingo.
...And at the end of the day, IMO, that's what this really comes down to...
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WorldTraveler
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I'm trying to figure what PDX has to do with anything. can you help us out? If DL doesn't rely on AS to feed it and uses its NRT hub, what does it have to do with the AS discussion.
maybe there is some connection and if there is, I'm more than happy to hear it.
maybe there is some connection and if there is, I'm more than happy to hear it.
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