DOT FA cost/pay-compensation chart

[LukeAisleWalker]

Isn’t it a bit ironic that you make this statement in a post where you assert that I am condescending? However, if it was intentionally ironic, then Bravo.

I didn't know that my wishing everyone a Happy Thanksgiving and my opinion of your writing style were mutually exclusive. I hope I can wish you the best yet still give my honest opinion about your writing style/tactics and disagree with your opinions.

Luke, one of the problems that you have with reading my posts is you consistently read into them something that is not there.

I don't think so. I've known your writing style and inherent attitude for quite some time. IF I am mistaken, then perhaps you should think about HOW your writing comes across to the reader before you click the POST icon.

The NWA people coming to us are bringing much to the table just like the PAA flight attendants did 15 years ago. I think that this combination gives our company reach and the diversity to withstand the economic cycle. However, as the afa-CWA points out, this is a new Delta that is different from the old Delta. However, IMHO, Richard Anderson is not the dividing line, it was Ron Allen. This is yet another chapter in the new Delta story.

I agree with the first part. The rest is just what you said: YOUR opinion. I don't consider this yet "another chapter". I've been an original DL f/a for almost 30 years (Yes, I too wish 25 years ago the Board had chosen H.Harris over R.Allen but that's ancient history) and I would say, in keeping with your book theme, this would be another VOLUME. My opinion being based on the size and scope of this merger compared to past ones (NE, WAL, PA) AND the fact that, as NXNW points out, it is being operated on an upper managerial level by far more of the "former" airlines' executive board than previous mergers (Mr. Grinstein, nothwithstanding.)

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

D'Oh! The AFA making up numbers to try to sell its product to a workgroup that has never thought that product necessary? Never!

As always, BoeingBoy provides the most thoughtful, non-agenda-laden posts on this forum.

Most others in this thread (me included, sometimes) have something to sell. And sellers can't always be believed.

I, for one, am not naive enough to believe that AFA isn't trying to "sell something." My car insurance company is always trying to sell something too. But I pay it, not only because I have to, but because (and hopefully the day will never come), I may NEED it one day. I certainly don't like writing that check out to them but I know if something happened, I can rest assured that the costs and liability won't all come out of my pocket.
It's the same with the union.
I wish there were other alternatives (unions)and there may be, but not in the immediate future. If anything, the strength of our numbers will force AFA to be even more responsive to their members than ever before.
This is the same line of thinking of those that think that the threat of the union is better than the actual thing to keep DL mgt in-check with pay and benefits. Only this time, the threat of voting AFA out should cause them to cross t's and dot i's just as the threat of the union should cause DL to do the same. The only problem is..I don't like what's happened to non flight-pay items such as sick leave, pension, OJI/STD. Those were diminished right after we lost the 2002 vote. And for that reason, for me, I'd rather "pay the insurance" and keep the pressure on the AFA to be responsive rather than what we've been doing for years. It used to work but to me, it no longer does. Just the facts as I see them.

 

[BoeingBoy]

There is a VAST difference in a CEO announcing to Wall Street about the lowest costs of his company vs. the lowest costs of a specific group of employees. (I am assuming that is an oversight of yours) Which is exactly what R Anderson and many other have stated, Delta's FA provide it with the lowest cost of all majors FAs.

Not an oversight per se, just based on what you said:

"It appears you believe DL's CEO is misleading Wall Street when he states that DL has the LOWEST "costs" (that what you take home for bi weekly compensation) of all other major competitors. I happen to think that Mr. Anderson is telling the truth."

Since it's not my month to keep up with what Anderson tells Wall Street, I merely took your statement at face value - that he said "DL has the LOWEST 'costs' of all other major competitors." I do know (at least based on the 3rd quarter report) that that is a true statement - DL does have the lowest costs of the legacy carriers (I assume that Anderson isn't dumb enough to try to convince Wall Street that DL has lower costs than WN).

However, "lower costs" is different from saying that a specif employee group has lower costs than the same group at another airline. Hence the WN comment to show that "lower costs" is different than "lower employee costs" or "lower [insert labor group] costs.

More over, you are doing nothing but "guesstimating" about what your think AFA "guesstimated" about. Which makes your answer nothing more than a guesstimation./quote]

Not at all - you're free to go to the BTS site (actually Transtats) and see for yourself how they break down expenses, or rather which expenses aren't broken down by specific labor group. Didn't AFA say that the info for their chart came from Form 41 data? I was merely pointing out the obvious (to anyone that bothers to look at the Form 41 data) - that some of their expense (or cost) data isn't broken down by employee group. So AFA got some of their info from somewhere besides Form 41.

Jim

 

[FWAAA]

So the union dues are like insurance premiums?

As I've posted before, when someone's selling union membership, they're the best protection since an umbrella policy.

During the legacy airline financial meltdown from 2001-2007, not very many unions prevented what the employer wanted/needed to impose. Pensions terminated (or frozen if not terminated); wages and benefits slashed; and tens of thousands furloughed.

Entire workgroups disappeared (UA airframe overhaul at IND and OAK) and threatened strikes didn't work out so well (NW AMTs). Others talked tough but did nothing (NW FAs).

If the insurance premiums actually bought real "protection," it wouldn't be such a tough sell at Delta, now, would it?

 

[North by Northwest]

So the union dues are like insurance premiums?

As I've posted before, when someone's selling union membership, they're the best protection since an umbrella policy.

During the legacy airline financial meltdown from 2001-2007, not very many unions prevented what the employer wanted/needed to impose. Pensions terminated (or frozen if not terminated); wages and benefits slashed; and tens of thousands furloughed.

Entire workgroups disappeared (UA airframe overhaul at IND and OAK) and threatened strikes didn't work out so well (NW AMTs). Others talked tough but did nothing (NW FAs).

If the insurance premiums actually bought real "protection," it wouldn't be such a tough sell at Delta, now, would it?

Most of what you say is correct, however, you left the most important and critical aspect...Many "talked tough" but were prevented by court orders from carrying out their tough talk. Others, were simply set up with the assistance of an administration that has worked against unions from day one.

It doesn't take an economist to figure out who fared better between non union Delta, and the insurance of a union at NW...the facts, figures, and actions of management (most of whom are now running New Delta) speak for themselves.

Clearly, the situation was FAR MORE complicated than "talk". I draw your attention to the court order of NW FAs while in bankruptcy, and the fines and jailing of NYC Transit leaders for dis-obeying a court order, the fines of AA pilots association-Reno.

Furthermore, there is a big difference in being TOLD how much you will lose and WHEN you will lose it vs. negotiating under the weight of bankruptcy. I will remind those that NW FAs were the LAST in the industry to succome to FORCED compensation. Clearly, just as they FORCED upon a group once before, they can just as easily force it again.

I am sure you and the public notice how not ONE pension of an airline executive was lost or frozen, with all coming out with an increase many times over in compensation for driving these companies into bankruptcy.

-----------------
BBoy-

My reference was to Anderson and Bastian's frequent statements regarding the cost of Delta's non union FAs and the advantages it gave Delta over it's competitors.

I mis quoted and take your statement on face value.

 

[North by Northwest]

I, for one, am not naive enough to believe that AFA isn't trying to "sell something." My car insurance company is always trying to sell something too. But I pay it, not only because I have to, but because (and hopefully the day will never come), I may NEED it one day. I certainly don't like writing that check out to them but I know if something happened, I can rest assured that the costs and liability won't all come out of my pocket.
It's the same with the union.
I wish there were other alternatives (unions)and there may be, but not in the immediate future. If anything, the strength of our numbers will force AFA to be even more responsive to their members than ever before.
This is the same line of thinking of those that think that the threat of the union is better than the actual thing to keep DL mgt in-check with pay and benefits. Only this time, the threat of voting AFA out should cause them to cross t's and dot i's just as the threat of the union should cause DL to do the same. The only problem is..I don't like what's happened to non flight-pay items such as sick leave, pension, OJI/STD. Those were diminished right after we lost the 2002 vote. And for that reason, for me, I'd rather "pay the insurance" and keep the pressure on the AFA to be responsive rather than what we've been doing for years. It used to work but to me, it no longer does. Just the facts as I see them.

100% agreed.

How silly of us to respect the choices of the highest paid, best work rules on the property, pilots and management. Clearly, THEY are the only ones worth good wages, and a voice in the work place. Everyone else must be silent and do as they are told.

Contracts are BAD (for everyone but THEM)...just ask the pilots and ALL of New Delta's managment.

 

[BoeingBoy]

NxNW,

If you want to see the kind of data that's available from Form 41 data combined with SEC financial filings, the folks at MIT have done the work for you. It's called the "Airline Data Project" and is also publicly available (although with a greater delay than the Form 41 data itself).

Airline Data Project

Jim

 

[North by Northwest]

NxNW,

If you want to see the kind of data that's available from Form 41 data combined with SEC financial filings, the folks at MIT have done the work for you. It's called the "Airline Data Project" and is also publicly available (although with a greater delay than the Form 41 data itself).

Airline Data Project

Jim

Thanks Jim for posting this.

I've already reviewed it.

An excellent indicator of that info is the FA cost comparison between NW and Delta. NW costs fell through the floor under the BK court imposed Terms of employment (cooked up by some of New Delta's current leaders).

Productivity Measures Revenue= a sound cost analysis of the two groups. Delta's costs per FA=$1169./ NW costs per FA=$1210.

Average Salary: NW-$35,674..../...DL-$36,931

Other Compensation Per Employee-FAs: NW-$18,123.../... DL-$12,006


NW-$53,797.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2007%20...rlines%2007.htm

DL-$48,937.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2007%20...rlines%2007.htm


"New Delta" has $102,081,000. (just to bring "old" Delta FA up to NW FAs current compensation level) reasons per year NOT to want a unionized FA group. (So much for empty DIRECT relationship rhetoric)

(Delta's spike in pay matched periods of union elections.)

------------------------

On another note- here is an example of what unionized employees have been up against with this administration and when it's "a good time to strike vs. bad time to strike", good, only when the company can fire all striking employees and it won't shut down the company. Bad when the employee group might just force the company to negotiate.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2006/08/nw.html

 

[dapoes]

NxNW,

Ive pretty much come to the conclusion that no matter what you have to have the last word. And even when facts are presented, you choose to ignore/dismiss them. You are not always right nor the gatekeeper to all things right. You just like to hear yourself talk, and when you do...you have to be rude and condescending to others who see different. :down:

 

[North by Northwest]

NxNW,

Ive pretty much come to the conclusion that no matter what you have to have the last word. And even when facts are presented, you choose to ignore/dismiss them. You are not always right nor the gatekeeper to all things right. You just like to hear yourself talk, and when you do...you have to be rude and condescending to others who see different. :down:

It's so cute...when you are hypocritical and can't stand others who won't follow you off a cliff. I prefer to debate, if I don't have anything to add to the debate, I stop reading it.

Try it.

{Dapoes- page 1}


"Kev,

As a ramp guy, looking at the comparison between FA's means nothing to you as you have no understanding of it. We understand as line-by-line as we see and confirm the information via our paycheck and working environment.

Granted you will disagree no matter what, so discussing with you and the other DAL haters, NxNW, etc is moot. You and others wish nothing more then to burn down the DAL house as retribution for the NWA brand exiting the market place. You hated NWA then so, you hate DAL/NWA now and no matter what that will never change. Theres a certain camaraderie amongst union workers to complain about the company just for the sake of complaining. Even if offered a pot of gold for life those people will still complain."

 

[FWAAA]

Most of what you say is correct, however, you left the most important and critical aspect...Many "talked tough" but were prevented by court orders from carrying out their tough talk. Others, were simply set up with the assistance of an administration that has worked against unions from day one.

I left nothing out. NW FAs threatened a strike if their contract was abrogated. The bankruptcy court permitted NW to impose its terms, and yet the FAs did not strike despite the tough talk. Several weeks passed before the court order prohibiting the strike.

Clearly, the situation was FAR MORE complicated than "talk". I draw your attention to the court order of NW FAs while in bankruptcy, and the fines and jailing of NYC Transit leaders for dis-obeying a court order, the fines of AA pilots association-Reno.

Looks like revisionist history to me. See paragraph above. Several weeks passed between imposition of new wage terms and the court order prohibiting the strike.

During those weeks, nothing but talk. Lotsa empty words. I've never seen a union say the word "strike" as much as NW FAs did in June, July and August 2006 yet seemingly afraid to actually strike.

After the court order, you're right. Can't strike then unless you want to bankrupt your union. But you had weeks. I would have struck the day the new terms were imposed. YMMV.

 

[dapoes]

It's so cute...when you are hypocritical and can't stand others who won't follow you off a cliff. I prefer to debate, if I don't have anything to add to the debate, I stop reading it.

Try it.

{Dapoes- page 1}


"Kev,

As a ramp guy, looking at the comparison between FA's means nothing to you as you have no understanding of it. We understand as line-by-line as we see and confirm the information via our paycheck and working environment.

Granted you will disagree no matter what, so discussing with you and the other DAL haters, NxNW, etc is moot. You and others wish nothing more then to burn down the DAL house as retribution for the NWA brand exiting the market place. You hated NWA then so, you hate DAL/NWA now and no matter what that will never change. Theres a certain camaraderie amongst union workers to complain about the company just for the sake of complaining. Even if offered a pot of gold for life those people will still complain."

Yes and that was meant for you...and I meant every last word.

 

[North by Northwest]

I left nothing out. NW FAs threatened a strike if their contract was abrogated. The bankruptcy court permitted NW to impose its terms, and yet the FAs did not strike despite the tough talk. Several weeks passed before the court order prohibiting the strike.



Looks like revisionist history to me. See paragraph above. Several weeks passed between imposition of new wage terms and the court order prohibiting the strike.

During those weeks, nothing but talk. Lotsa empty words. I've never seen a union say the word "strike" as much as NW FAs did in June, July and August 2006 yet seemingly afraid to actually strike.

After the court order, you're right. Can't strike then unless you want to bankrupt your union. But you had weeks. I would have struck the day the new terms were imposed. YMMV.

Yes you did, and yours and mine's personal opinion about why "you" think they didn't strike is irrelevant to this thread or the strike. It didn't concern you.

"I would have struck the day the new terms were imposed." (I would have too...but it wasn't up to you or me)

Besides, this thread is NOT about your personal opinion regarding NW FA's striking (I suggest you start a thread if it is an important subject for you).

It s about the compensation levels of NW/DL FAs.

 

[aislehopper]

Besides, this thread is NOT about . . .

It s about the compensation levels of NW/DL FAs.

And at post # 44 of this thread, it looks like your statement "I guess this will put to rest who makes more between NW/DL" is false along with your underlying proposition.

 

[Dignity]

Several weeks passed before the court order

I recall there was a 15 day notice that was required, could that have possibly been the "several weeks" you are referring? or did you simply forget to mention that along with your comments?