Exec: Delta Unprepared for Pilots' Strike (AP)

[MatthewAMEL]

Oh...and one last thing...that is an insult to state that just b/c you have a plane full of people behind you that you are equivalent to (or from what I read of your post...better than) a doctor. A busdriver carries more pax in a day than you do. A taxidriver does as well. Should we be thankful that they are so nice as to not drive off a cliff and kill us just b/c their salary is low? Oh thank you for not deliberately crashing a plane b/c you don't get paid enough! Give me a friggen break.

You know, I was hoping you would be stupid enough to compare Airline travel to taxis or busses!

I never even hinted that anyone would deliberately crash a vehicle and injure people because they were not getting paid enough. My comment was about the relative RISKS associated with the two professions. I'm sure it's enlightening to everyone here to see where your assumtions led you.

I also never implied that you were jealous of the amount of money we get paid. You are jealous of the lifestyle and schedule we keep. I am writing you from my laptop in my living room on the 2nd of 6 days off. I am sure you are locked in your cube, waiting anxiously for noon to arrive so you can head on out to lunch at the local Quizznos.

 

[Fly]

Sorry, nothing to debate here with you. You obviously don't understand how pilots are paid and don't want to accept the fact that they DID take $1 billion paycuts last year. You have a jealousy issue that is hard to fathom.

And no, I don't talk out my arse. If I could, I would stop flying and open my own circus.

 

[DLFlyer31]

You obviously don't understand how pilots are paid and don't want to accept the fact that they DID take $1 billion paycuts last year.

I'll be the first to agree that CH12 doesn't understand pilot pay and pilot work load. But in the end, it really doesn't matter.

As DL pilots stand today, they are still some of the best paid in the industry. This might be ok if DL also had one of the highest yielding networks in the industry. But in reality, DL has a low-yield network that relies heavily on leisure traffic and connecting traffic. This structure requires that DL maintain very-low costs in order to survive (costs lower than most legacies).

This is nothing particularly new. This has been the nature of DL's route structure for a long time. If DL pilots want to be the best paid in the industry, they had better find work with a different airline. Barring something near earth shattering, DL will never have a network capable of creating enough revenue to keep all its employees at the top of the payscales.

This is the economic reality of Delta Air Lines.

 

[ualdriver]

Wow, you must have a pretty nice gig there Ch12. It's well into the morning if you live anywhere in the U.S. and here you are on your computer. Should I use the same USA Today sterotpyes that you've used so far to describe my "part-time" job? Either you're typing on company time (do you subtract all the time you spend on aviation forums from YOUR salary computations?) Or perhaps you had the luxury of a little extra shut-eye and haven't made it in to work yet? 40-60 hour weeks, huh? How much of that time is spend surfing the internet or on that 2 hour business lunch? You know, I was having breakfast reading USA Today and there was a rather large article about how unproductive professionals such as yourself are while at work. You might be surprised to hear this, but it seems many managers such as yourself spend a lot of time around the water cooler or buying anniversary gifts on the internet for the Mrs. instead of working? Maybe you need to work 40-60+ hours a week to make up for all the time you spend doing stuff not work related while in the office? Certainly the broad paint brush I am using above applies to your profession as your previous diatribes apply to mine?


Funny thing is that I try to have a factual, intelligent debate and all that you can resort to is emotions.
Actually, by implying that the typical airline pilot works part time, you're not having a factual debate at all.

Should we be thankful that they are so nice as to not drive off a cliff and kill us just b/c their salary is low?

Well, taxi drivers statistically do have very low salaries no matter where you live. However, I think you'd be surprised to learn that the typical pilot after 4 years of college and years building experience might exceed a City of Chicago (where I live near) bus driver's salary after 4 or 5 years of flying.

I DO agree that the trips aren't built well. But why don't you use this wonderful BK time when you have a judge that can help to streamline operations? Instead...all the time is wasted on focusing only on not giving up a penny while EVERYONE else did!!

UAL- You never broke down the $1B. Try again. Your "35% paycut" that your buddy took still left his profession averaging 170k. OK...let's use the more conservative 135-140k. Still pretty good b/c it ain't a full schedule.

Ch12, you're in management, right? 6 figures they pay you, huh? Still you believe that the pilots did not give up one penny while everyone else did even after repeatedly being told otherwise? A smart, management guy earning 6 figures ought to learn how to use Google while trying to have a "factual, intelligent debate." That's one of many articles. Is the Associated Press lying too?

November 30, 2004

ATLANTA (AP) -- At least 100 Delta Air Lines pilots are expected to retire effective Wednesday, the start date for a 32-and-a-half percent pay cut agreed to in a one billion dollar concessions package.....

http://www.cbs46.com/Global/story.asp?S=2631242

And trust me...I have no perception that the pilot's life is glorious nor have I ever stated such.

Actually, yes you have. You're telling us all how DAL pilots work part time and average 170K/year. If that's not an implied glorious job, I'm not sure what is.


Let's see...
--8-10:15+1.5 hrs preflight=3.75
--6-11:15 (includes time btwn flights)+1 hr preflt=6.25
--2:15-4pm +1.5 hrs=3.25
--8-9am +1.5 hrs=2.5
--overall timespan:5 days or typical professional WORKS 40+ hours. You have WORKED 15.75. Again...no sympathy for layovers, etc, b/c it is the chosen profession and I simply cannot count that as work time (nor will I give brownie points for holidays. I used to be a firefighter and every christmas morning I could count on being called out to a fire...never spend a real christmas with my family during that time).

What a perfect comparison! You were a firefigher. Great. Certainly a noble profession and probably an underpaid/underappreciated one. Now, the median firefighter out in the Chicago suburbs makes 37K/year (18 bucks/hour for a 40hr. week) in salary alone in a mid-sized community (much, much more in retirement and benefits however. It's a good deal out here if you can get into a nice department and start young. But I digress....) How many hours does the typical fire fighter spend ACTUALLY fighting fires? 40 hours a week? 20 hours a week? Nope. A very, very small fraction of that. I know that because I have a fire fighter in my community. Now, the comparison you make above by saying that the typical pilot only flies "X" hours but gets paid "Y" salary and sits around in-between and therefore shouldn't shouldn't count for anything would be just as ridiculous as saying, "Well Mr. Firefighter, you only spent 9 cumulative hours this week responding to calls or putting out fires so we're only going to pay you for 9 hours of work where you were ACTUALLY doing your job at 18 bucks an hour. Here's your paycheck for $162 bucks. And by the way, consider yourself a part time employee." By your logic, 37,000/year for 36 hours of work for the whole MONTH! What a deal, right Chpt 12?

Obviously we wouldn't dream of ONLY paying fire fighters for the time they ACTUALLY put out a fire or respond to a call and not compensate them for the hours they waste as they sit around the firehouse. There are some inherent inefficient characteristics of the firefighter full-time job that are beyond his control that involve paid sit time. If all we did was pay fire fighters for the actual time they did actually performing their job, we'd have fire fighters who wouldn't be able to earn a good living and they would go do something else. Then we'd have complete idiots filling the fire fighting positions in our communities because if we only paid them for the time they were ACTUALLY working, they'd make nothing and we'd only be able to attract idiots who would work for that small amount of money.

There are some inherent inefficient characteristics of flight crew positions beyond the pilot's control that involve paid sit time that they must be compensated for. Get it?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Yes, yes...another diversion attempt. Let's get facts straight since you cannot:

1) I am in the industry, nitwit. Read my posts and piece it together. Don't ruin what little credibility that you have by letting your arse speak for you. What do you want? My home address so that you can throw a horse's head through my window? I guess then that you are not in the industry? If it is as simple as just stating that, then it MUST be true

2) I don't PAY. Guess you got the short end of the stick if you are paying for this. Ha!

3) Can you point out any post here that has brought value? You only try to defame people's character b/c you cannot come up with a case. I mention economics, costs, revenues, that mgmt is just as at fault as anyone else, etc. In other words...I am objective and think through the issue. It is an insult to the rest of us on these boards when all that you can contribute is "your momma" arguments. Get educated and then come back. I would love to have a debate full of intelligence and rationalization rather than a schoolyard egotrip with no substance.

Regarding number 1, being in the industry does not equate to understanding the piloting profession. Doug Parker himself, the new USAirways CEO, said in a recent USA Today article that he didn't understand what it takes to fly the plane. Apparantly you don't either.

 

[ualdriver]

I'll be the first to agree that CH12 doesn't understand pilot pay and pilot work load. But in the end, it really doesn't matter.

As DL pilots stand today, they are still some of the best paid in the industry. This might be ok if DL also had one of the highest yielding networks in the industry. But in reality, DL has a low-yield network that relies heavily on leisure traffic and connecting traffic. This structure requires that DL maintain very-low costs in order to survive (costs lower than most legacies).

This is nothing particularly new. This has been the nature of DL's route structure for a long time. If DL pilots want to be the best paid in the industry, they had better find work with a different airline. Barring something near earth shattering, DL will never have a network capable of creating enough revenue to keep all its employees at the top of the payscales.

This is the economic reality of Delta Air Lines.

I agree, and unfortunately this is the reality that has to be faced at DAL, UAL, NWA, etc. As long as we have employee groups willing to lower the bar at our competitors (especially the LCC's), we will all have to come down to that low common denominator to compete. I would bet that most DAL pilots understand that as well. It's the whole "trust" thing that is dragging all this out unfortunately.

 

[767jetz]

Truth hurts all of you, doesn't it?

No. But your wildly simplistic assumptions sure do. And so does your assertion of wanting to have a factual discussion when you leave so many facts out.

Yes you may work in the industry, but in what capacity we still don’t know. In management you say. Of what? The McDonalds on concourse B?? No one is defaming you, so please spare us the arrogant posture and come down from your self-proclaimed position of expertise. Showing the errors in your assumptions is more accurate. Unless you work in our capacity you are no expert.

There was a time that ALPA insisted on and negotiated duty rigs. Any idea what that is? It meant that we get a minimum amount of pay for a specific amount of duty time (Not time away from base, BTW). The specific intention was to compel the company to use us as efficiently as possible and avoid long days with minimum productivity. Translation… If we are at work, we want to work. Guess what? The company didn’t want it, and took much of it away during concessionary bargaining.

Now, your assertions that pilots AVERAGE 170k is so far off it is comical. Try an average more like 100k-120k. No matter how you slice it, pilots can only fly 1000 hours per year of BLOCK TIME. And even this number is rarely reached. If the company planned to schedule pilots to that number, then when you factor in unplanned delays throughout the year, you would have half the pilots sitting at home for the last 2 to 3 weeks of the year, BY LAW. So let’s say 950 hours is a more reasonable annual target.

OK, so in the interest of seeing it from your perspective, let’s assume for the moment that layover time doesn’t count for anything. (I don’t agree with this premise. More on that later. But I’m trying to be objective here.) This leaves us with time “at work†and should be time a person is compensated for. Just like the Doctor who may only be in the operating room 10 hours per week, most reasonable people would consider the time he spends in the hospital or on the beeper as time he should be compensated for. When he is on the premises he has certain responsibilities even when he grabs a bite to eat in the cafeteria or is in between patients. After all many professions, doctors and pilots included, have collateral duties that do not directly use their hands on skill, but are required in order to do their job. Hence they are compensated for it in one way or another. So what we’re talking about here is duty time. A typical day can range anywhere from 4 to 16 hours of duty time, with the average over the course of a 4 day trip being about 8.75 hours. With a typical 4 on 3 off pattern we are talking about 35 hours per week. Much more realistic than your "part time" assertion, and again not including time away from home. Multiply this by 52 weeks and you come up with a number almost TWICE as much as the 950 hours a pilot gets paid for. (Or 151.666 hours per month, if you prefer) Are you starting to see a different picture yet?

Now on to the idea that layover time counts for nothing. When a businessman is away from home, will his company call at 11:00 at night and make him come in for a meeting, or is he still on a 9 to 5 and at the bar with his colleagues after that? Did you know that crews are subject to being called at any time during their layover to be reassigned? That’s right. From the moment we are on the premises for our first flight, until we park the plane on the last day, we are essentially on call. (Within certain legal limits of course) The company requires this, just like the reserve pilot who sits at home or in a crash pad and is available for assignment. Just like the fireman who sits in the firehouse playing cards. Should he get paid only for the time he puts water on a fire? Of course not. There is a financial value to this company flexibility, and people should be compensated to some degree for it. Airlines could not operate without reserves and the ability to reassign crews. It’s just the way the transportation business works. And it is just one of many examples of details you fail to consider or conveniently ignore in your amateur analysis, to support your inaccurate conclusions.

The pay structure is designed to account for many of these variables, and using the “fly 5 hours, get paid 5 hours†argument is overly simplistic. The system is by no means perfect, but if you want to restructure it, then you still have to consider 100% of the variables, not just the convenient 50%. Sure you could give everyone a 50% pay cut, but then you’d have to pay them for duty time not just block time. You’d also have to pay an override for time on call during layovers or long sits on call at the airport.

How about this… I show up at the airplane, close the door, start the engines, and push back. Now according to your assumptions I am on the clock with the passengers buckled in behind me. Now I can get the paperwork and do all my preflight preparation. About 45 minutes later we’ll be ready to taxi. Once we’re at the gate at our destination the doors stay closed with the engines running. We secure the airplane, debrief, pack up, shut down the engines, post flight, and then let everyone off after we’re off the clock. Of course the company can not call me until I show up on the next flight either an hour later or the next day. Once we are on the clock, with the doors closed and the engines running, the company can call to inform us that while we were partying at the Hilton last night our flight was cancelled and we are reassigned. Since this was the first time we could be reached, we are now to go back to the gate for our next assignment.

Obviously this fantasy scenario is ridiculous, but it just illustrates how your ideas are unworkable and unrealistic in the real world. If you want people to take you more seriously you need to let go of your rigid assumptions and try to be more objective. You get nowhere by judging others and being unwilling to learn from those with more direct knowledge than you. Crews work far more than you claim they do and get paid far less than you claim, whether you want to admit it or not. No it is not 40 hour per week manual labor like construction work for instance. But neither is being a fireman, lawyer, doctor, or what have you.

When it is structured properly, pay for block hours works because there SHOULD be a direct correlation between the hours flown and all of the collateral work time and on-call time. Hourly rates of pay are then adjusted upward to capture ALL of these factors. Theoretically as block time goes up or down, so does work time and time subject to reassignment. Considering the entire picture then, comparing these pay rates to the 40 hour work week becomes an apples to oranges comparison.

Also let’s not forget that like doctors, pilots are responsible peoples lives with every decision, and spend many years educating themselves and working long hours at low pay to gain the experience necessary to do their jobs! As much as you hate this comparison and wish it weren’t true, maybe you can put your emotions aside and face facts. You want to compare us to taxi drivers??! Sorry, but pilots transport hundreds more people, thousands of more miles than bus and taxi drivers. Just because we make it look easy doesn’t mean that it is. Let’s also not forget that taxi drivers can not crash their cars into buildings and take down the World Trade Center. Do I need to mention the many pilots who are now armed Federal Officers authorized to use deadly force, and voluntarily take on this additional responsibility, along with recurrent training, and personal time and effort with no additional pay to keep people like you safe? But we’ll just call that work ethics and personal pride… and BTW, you’re welcome.

And yes we do work in the hotel rooms. Ever hear of revisions? We are responsible for maintaining the currency of all our flight manuals because the company does not want to pay to do it themselves. We are also required by law to prepare many hours for semi-annual proficiency training. This is more work time we are not compensated for. Many of us do it in our hotel rooms so as not to take time away from our families. I could go on and on explaining to you all the minute details you fail to consider while judging a profession you know little about, but I doubt it will make a difference. While you are quick to accuse others of defaming you, you obviously are not objective enough, or are perhaps too emotional to consider any facts that do not support your preconceptions.

 

[WorldTraveler]

It doesn't really matter how much time you spend doing your job, pilots. You are paid not by how much you do but what the market for your job is. And yes, the bar, keeps going lower because airline pilots have some of the most non-transferable skills of any profession. That's not to say many of you don't have educations that would allow you to do other things but your pilot skills work for very few companies and it is those companies that can no longer afford to pay you what you demanded in the past. That's the reality - even if it means you get to spend only 10 hrs a week at home, there are people who will be willing to work for less pay because they have nowhere else to use their skills. ALPA drove the market pay up for years and now it's watching it collapse and there isn't a darn thing they can do about it.

And Fly, let's remember that DL pilots got a nearly $1B raise right before 9/11 that they held onto longer than any other pilot group. Delta giveth and Delta taketh away.

 

[767jetz]

It doesn't really matter how much time you spend doing your job, pilots.

With this I agree. The rest I do not. Pilots are paid for what they know how to do. Just like many other specialized field.

I'd say a heart surgeon is a pretty specialized field. A doctor's skills are not very transferable to other industries. Does this mean he should be paid what the market will bear? Have you seen the cost of health care these days? Must be because of these over paid, underworked blokes who make too much money. I'm sure by your logic, all the people who can't afford health care are blaming the overpaid doctors, right? Maybe all doctors should take a 30 to 50 % pay cut. That'll solve everything.

 

[luv2fly]

Delta giveth and Delta taketh away.

I think it is more like Delta taketh away and the pilots doth shut it down.
Vote no, and vote often.

 

[DLFlyer31]

Does this mean he should be paid what the market will bear?

Yes and doctors are paid what the market will bear. The current market can bear doctor's salaries. The elasticity of demand for healthcare is quite different than for airline tickets. People are willing to pay a lot for healthcare because it is vital to their survival. Air travel is not.

However, if prices continue to rise too fast, it will have an impact. Doctor's salaries (adjusted for inflation) have actually been relatively stagnant in the past 20 years. Of course, salary growth varies tremendously among the different specialities...which is again driven by the same market factors.

 

[Busdrvr]

Yes and doctors are paid what the market will bear. The current market can bear doctor's salaries. The elasticity of demand for healthcare is quite different than for airline tickets. People are willing to pay a lot for healthcare because it is vital to their survival. Air travel is not.

However, if prices continue to rise too fast, it will have an impact. Doctor's salaries (adjusted for inflation) have actually been relatively stagnant in the past 20 years. Of course, salary growth varies tremendously among the different specialities...which is again driven by the same market factors.

Stagnant (adjusted for inflation) wages is a pilots DREAM!!! Give me some of that . Truth be told, we pilots have culpability in not setting reasonable minimum levels of industry pay. I'd agree that if something we to happen like a massive outbreak of a flu bug that killed everybody over 40 overnight, and affected no one else, the demand for Dr's would drop significantly. You could even argue that the market should sort it out and Dr pay should be cut until supply equals demand, but that would not excuse the incoherant ramblings of some GED fool who thinks Dr's "didn't deserve" the pay levels they got before the collapse. I don't mind someone making the market wages argument, but I do get the beak when some idiot spouts off about things he has no knowledge or understanding of.

 

[Ch. 12]

Stagnant (adjusted for inflation) wages is a pilots DREAM!!! Give me some of that . Truth be told, we pilots have culpability in not setting reasonable minimum levels of industry pay. I'd agree that if something we to happen like a massive outbreak of a flu bug that killed everybody over 40 overnight, and affected no one else, the demand for Dr's would drop significantly. You could even argue that the market should sort it out and Dr pay should be cut until supply equals demand, but that would not excuse the incoherant ramblings of some GED fool who thinks Dr's "didn't deserve" the pay levels they got before the collapse. I don't mind someone making the market wages argument, but I do get the beak when some idiot spouts off about things he has no knowledge or understanding of.

Now, now, Bus...you know full well that I NEVER said that you should not have been paid well before the collapse. I agree that in good times, employees should be rewarded but I also subscribe to the fact that in bad times it just is no longer feasible to pay inflated rates. The market has adjusted drastically in the industry (much more than just the 20 year cyclical trends of the life of the industry) and pay rates for all have to be adjusted...drastically. I still would love to see something more than the token 15% taken by the execs b/c I also think that DL execs (all legacy execs for that matter) are paid WELL above what the market can bear. I'd be willing to debate that with them on these boards more than to talk about pilots wages but I haven't seen a single one lurking here.

My WHOLE point in all of this thread is that wages have gone up (for all) over the past 20 years, airfare (not even inflation-adjusted) has gone down (and this isn't at the will of mgmt...there is no conspiracy...it is due to intense competition of new entrants and a very high elasticity of demand), and an adjustment needs to be made. I am making the logical argument but never am trying to imply that such an adjustment would be easy.

So I mention economics and it gets ugly. We hear that pilots ARE in fact just like doctors. Well let me just say that #1...the healthcare profits go to insurance companies...not doctors...#2...I am so sickened by drawing similarities between pilots and doctors. A pilot has a technical skill...such as an engineer...or even, yes, a busdriver...but relatively few people have that skill. A doctor saves lives. Just b/c you can apply a skill that means a plane will operate to its specifications doesn't mean you are saving lives. And the whole idea that a doctor (even if we just go with a surgeon like the popular examples on this thread) only operates a few hours a day and that is it is preposterous. They work sometimes literally 'round the clock tending to bedsides, office visits, surgeries, etc. To say that a pilot is the same as a doctor is as insulting as to say that the boyscout who has learned to start a fire is the same as the WWI vet that battled in the trenches in France.

So even though everything I say is taken as an insult, stop being so sensitive. I have to go to extremes b/c nobody can seem to fathom the notion that there is a force working out there called economics. We are not limited to the force of corporate greed (though that does bear in at times) but rather have to face the realities of our time and those realities are that the market cannot sustain both the number of employees and the level of their wages. Trust me...we will all feel the pain before this is done (actually...already have) and the forces at hand go way beyond a stock buy-back in the glory days.

 

[mrfish3726]

Ch12 says "Now, now, Bus...you know full well that I NEVER said that you should not have been paid well before the collapse. I agree that in good times, employees should be rewarded but I also subscribe to the fact that in bad times it just is no longer feasible to pay inflated rates."

This is a ridiculous statement Ch12. Are you standing behind the management of every major airline that screwed their establishment up in the first place. It wasn't the fault of any one-employee group for the state of the airline industry today. It is the fault of ANYONE who managed these companies before and after 9/11.

When are these people (management) finally going to understand (like SWA management does), that you need to make yourself recession proof? Save for the hard times, and quit spending the profits on needless things like new paint, interiors, uniforms, planes, and facility up-grades. Do that after the fact not after you’re A$$ is so far in debt you can't even find it.

Take UniTED for instance a perfect example. In the early 90’s they got the employees to sign off on ESOP and acquired 5 billion plus in labor savings in exchange for a piece of the pie. Late 90’s UniTED is racking up billions in profits! Why weren’t they smart enough (like SWA) to hedge fuel for the next 20 years at less than a $1.00 a gallon. or fund the employees pension funds? No, what do they do with the profits? They burned it like firewood. Buying anything and everything they could have possibly imagined they needed. Did they think of things to come, like contract talks, which started after the new millennium? Hell no, they spent it all! And then went it was time to ante up and hand out slices of that pie, they cried broke.

The same happened at all the airlines, so go spew your venom someplace else about people being paid inflated rates. You have people in this industry (i.e. UniTED, US, and soon DL) that will still be working for 1980’s wages. Now do you consider that a fair deal that we continue to live making the same wage for 30 years? While the guys at the top who screwed it all up aren’t spending a little time in the slammer for what they did to this industry. Why guys like Goodwin and his cronies aren’t answering to a court why they robbed the UniTED workers out of billions in ESOP funds! Answer to congress why they couldn’t afford to fund the pensions because they blew 8 billion in profits????

 

[Ch. 12]

NOW we get the post from somebody who knows not of what he speaks (Fishy).

Let's see, Mr. Fish...mgmt (myself included...you know...I just got back from my polo match in Monaco with all of my wealth ) made the economy go sour, they invented the internet which has made pricing completely transparent and has taken away what little pricing power the industry had, they brought fuel prices up to astronomical levels, they made the barriers to entry so low in the industry that any mom or pop can start a carrier and flood the system with capacity, and they made business travellers start teleconferencing rather than using air travel as their primary way to meet. Yes...you do give mgmt alot of credit...with that much power, maybe they SHOULD be paid the 6 figures that you all tend to think they are paid. I already said that the executives are overpaid...but let's not group me in with that group b/c I make FAR less than 6 figures and have had a backwards trending wage for some time. But the issue is that I can SEE that this industry is in trouble and that they cannot afford to pay me a huge salary. Hell...I'm thankful we all have jobs in an industry that also has too many employees.

But before you accuse me of blaming the industry's woes on an employee group's wages, stop, catch your breath, and read through what has been posted. It is the external factors that have plunged the industry...not the pilots...not mgmt...not mechs...not f/a's. We were all in the same bubble and that has burst. Now we are all in the same conundrum. You are completely wrong in accusing me of blaming an employee group. I blame all factors listed above which, when taken one or two at a time might be able to be overcome, but all at once...no way. "recession proof" all you want but you also need to "internet proof", "fuel company greed proof", and "competition proof".

Thought I'd stick up for you before but maybe Fly had a point about captains and wrench-turners.