RowUnderDCA
Veteran
- Oct 6, 2002
- 2,123
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No one has shown me how U can manage to pay its employees more than AWA pays their employees. How would that be possible?
I'll Take This Contract Anyday!@!
- Thread starter isthisok
- Start date
700UW,
Even using your numbers, WN comes out on top. Each gate would have twice as many flights served. So, let's try a more apples-to-apples comparison (I'm assuming the 5 rampers serve the same 3 gates as the 2 utilities; please feel free to give more accurate numbers):
WN: 3 ramp agents for 2 flights
US: 1.3 utility, 3.3 ramp agents, 1 mech for 2 flights
On ramp agents alone, WN beats US. Then there's the 2.3 extra people. And the mechanic is paid more than the ramp agent. So you're looking at roughly double the labor cost on the tarmac alone.
Plus, you've got these 4 2/3 people sitting around doing nothing in between banks of flights, which means that per workday they turn fewer flights, which means that the per-flight costs go up further.
Even using your numbers, WN comes out on top. Each gate would have twice as many flights served. So, let's try a more apples-to-apples comparison (I'm assuming the 5 rampers serve the same 3 gates as the 2 utilities; please feel free to give more accurate numbers):
WN: 3 ramp agents for 2 flights
US: 1.3 utility, 3.3 ramp agents, 1 mech for 2 flights
On ramp agents alone, WN beats US. Then there's the 2.3 extra people. And the mechanic is paid more than the ramp agent. So you're looking at roughly double the labor cost on the tarmac alone.
Plus, you've got these 4 2/3 people sitting around doing nothing in between banks of flights, which means that per workday they turn fewer flights, which means that the per-flight costs go up further.
- Banned
- #20
WN rampers make almost $5 more and hour then US and thier mechanics make over $10 more an hour then US, and your #s are flawed, as US only has mechanics on dispatch at 5 stations, they have to be staffed to do the daily checks anyhow, otherwise the plane is not legal to fly for the day. The majority of pushbacks in PHL are done by the ramp as the mechanics are tied up doing daily checks.
And in CLT there are usually only 4 rampers working a flight, one in each bin and one at each belt loader offloading, if the plane is a 757 or a 321 it requires more and the 767 and the A330 utilize pod loading.
And in CLT there are usually only 4 rampers working a flight, one in each bin and one at each belt loader offloading, if the plane is a 757 or a 321 it requires more and the 767 and the A330 utilize pod loading.
700, you're arguing about leaves and I'm talking about the forest. Use the numbers you know about, and you'll still see that WN is running rings around you. Leave the mechs out of it, and you still have 1.6 extra people.
Even if WN's wages are higher, you have to count the bennies in the equation, because those count toward CASM. Ultimately, you cannot deny that 4.6 employees (even if they each make $5 less than their WN counterparts) cost more than 3 employees.
US is paying more to turn a plane than WN. Period.
Even if WN's wages are higher, you have to count the bennies in the equation, because those count toward CASM. Ultimately, you cannot deny that 4.6 employees (even if they each make $5 less than their WN counterparts) cost more than 3 employees.
US is paying more to turn a plane than WN. Period.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
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- Banned
- #24
mweiss,
I "sorta" see your point, but let's look at it again combining the US numbers above...not saying that they're necessaryly accurate.
Per flight
WN - 3 rampers (let's forget the F/A's picking up the cabin and the employee you'll see going up the jetway stairs with the supplies to clean/restock the lavs)
Result - 3 per flight
US - 5 rampers per 3 gates (1-2/3 per flight), 2 cleaners per 3 gates (2/3 per flight), and two mechanics per 2 gates (1 per flight)
Result - 3-1/3 per flight
As far as the number of flights per gate, who schedules that - certainly not the rampers, cleaners, or mechanics.
Jim
I "sorta" see your point, but let's look at it again combining the US numbers above...not saying that they're necessaryly accurate.
Per flight
WN - 3 rampers (let's forget the F/A's picking up the cabin and the employee you'll see going up the jetway stairs with the supplies to clean/restock the lavs)
Result - 3 per flight
US - 5 rampers per 3 gates (1-2/3 per flight), 2 cleaners per 3 gates (2/3 per flight), and two mechanics per 2 gates (1 per flight)
Result - 3-1/3 per flight
As far as the number of flights per gate, who schedules that - certainly not the rampers, cleaners, or mechanics.
Jim
Jim,
You're forgetting about one minor detail...the WN employees cover two flights in that gate in the time it takes US to cover one! So let's convert it to "person-hours"
WN's 3 per flight turns into 1 person-hour per flight (20-min turns=3 flights/hr)
US's 3.3 per flight turns into 2.5 person-hours per flight (45-min turns=1.3 flights/hr)
You're forgetting about one minor detail...the WN employees cover two flights in that gate in the time it takes US to cover one! So let's convert it to "person-hours"
WN's 3 per flight turns into 1 person-hour per flight (20-min turns=3 flights/hr)
US's 3.3 per flight turns into 2.5 person-hours per flight (45-min turns=1.3 flights/hr)
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
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- #26
mweiss,
that's what I meant by the last sentence:
"As far as the number of flights per gate, who schedules that - certainly not the rampers, cleaners, or mechanics."
It would be like GM cutting the assembly line speed in half and then blaming their workers for not being as productive as Ford's, so they have to work for less to make up the difference (of course they could speed it back up once the paycuts were in place and reap the bonuses, stock, etc for their "outstanding" performance)
Jim
that's what I meant by the last sentence:
"As far as the number of flights per gate, who schedules that - certainly not the rampers, cleaners, or mechanics."
It would be like GM cutting the assembly line speed in half and then blaming their workers for not being as productive as Ford's, so they have to work for less to make up the difference (of course they could speed it back up once the paycuts were in place and reap the bonuses, stock, etc for their "outstanding" performance)
Jim
Just a question. Are the 5 rampers counting those required to run the 100s of connection bags in PHL to/from each flight? This not only includes online connection bags, but interline as well. Once again, without having the no interline and limited online connections that WN has in MOST of its cities, its kind of hard to compare the two. Remember in PHL you have bags connecting all the way from A to F terminals and in between. Also I'm sure its helpful (maybe not necessary) to have more than a 3 man team when dealing with full 321s and 757s vs the 737s. Again, more people needed for a bigger plane?
Just a side note too. Most of the 20 min turns on WN are a thing of the past. I'm sure there might be some cities that have this scheduled, but many are 25-35 mins or more now.
Just a side note too. Most of the 20 min turns on WN are a thing of the past. I'm sure there might be some cities that have this scheduled, but many are 25-35 mins or more now.
Hey, Jim, don't put words in my mouth. I'm not trying to use any of this as justifications for lower wages. I'm just saying that it's gotta be the whole banana or else it's just throwing money out the door.
tadjr, you're right that the 20 min turn has increased by about 25%, in part because the average number of seats per plane has increased by about 25%. Which, of course, brings us to your bigger plane comment.
Of course a bigger plane needs more person-hours. But that should be (roughly) compensated by the larger number of seats, so the CASM associated with ground service would otherwise remain similar.
WN's point to point network does reduce the number of online connection bags, and their lack of interline does reduce costs somewhat (incidentally, do you have a sense of what percentage of bags go interline anymore?). Some of these sorts of costs (e.g., interline) provide benefits to the customer, and thus can be covered by higher fares. How much more does it cost to provide these services? I'd sure love to know; it'd give us a much better sense of whether or not the customers are willing to pay for these services.
tadjr, you're right that the 20 min turn has increased by about 25%, in part because the average number of seats per plane has increased by about 25%. Which, of course, brings us to your bigger plane comment.
Of course a bigger plane needs more person-hours. But that should be (roughly) compensated by the larger number of seats, so the CASM associated with ground service would otherwise remain similar.
WN's point to point network does reduce the number of online connection bags, and their lack of interline does reduce costs somewhat (incidentally, do you have a sense of what percentage of bags go interline anymore?). Some of these sorts of costs (e.g., interline) provide benefits to the customer, and thus can be covered by higher fares. How much more does it cost to provide these services? I'd sure love to know; it'd give us a much better sense of whether or not the customers are willing to pay for these services.
