Letter sent to NMB regarding FLeet Service dispute
- Thread starter Tim Nelson
- Start date
Nelson ........ What company that you have mentioned in your posts went from union to non-union and back to union? By comparing us to any others does not make alot of your points valid. Granted we make less than some other carriers, but the point I was trying to make is that if we were non-union at the time we would be making less with less benefits than we are now given that we all still had jobs. And quit making me sound like I am sticking up for the IAM. I agree that they should be off the property but if my only other choice is no union than I have no choice. Tell me what union you would like to see represent us. Or do you think that this company is going to bring your pay and benefits up to the top levels of the industry just because you vote the union out. Good boy Nelson, you helped us get rid of the union so we are going to crank up your pay and benefits to show our appreciation!DUH!!!!!!!!!I'm sure you have lots to say.
Sorry but anyone that thinks the company paying money in to a group's pension plan is not taken in to consideration of concessions or benefits is sorely mistaken.
Catagorize it how you want. You can look at it as a gain to the employees, but that gain comes at a cost overall. i.e maybe a little less in hourly wage, or less of an insurance copay, or a less liberal scheduling system...etc.
Every sentence of every page of every contract agreement of every unionized group, comes with a cost.
If you can't recognize this the company and the union will take you for a ride.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #49
stormchaser, I'm not sure I understand your reasoning, you kinda lost me buddy.
At any rate, you make less than ALL legacy carriers, not some. It doesn't matter if it is a union carrier or non-union carrier, US AIR fleet makes significantly less.
Why pay dues to the IAM?
Your point is based on exactly what? Do you think you got what you have because your union, and that if you were non-union you would have less? Your joking right?
You got what you got because that is what the company spelled out and it didn't matter one iota if you were paying dues to the IAM or not. If you think it did then I can only say that is nonsense and in the realm of 'belief' not actual facts.
Even now, your actually getting more than what the IAM agreed to. Explain the company giving you 'extra' things right now that aren't even in your contract?
And, I suggest you make comparisons to non-union personel if you think the IAM made a difference in saving one job or saved pay.
Something is desperately wrong with anyone's thinking if they think the IAM has made a difference, at a time when non-union workers in this industry are doing much better. Much better.
Stormchaser, simply mimicing the IAM and painting 'horns' on your company and shouting 'we're all out of a job if we get rid of the IAM' doesn't make 'good sense'. Not when you are the bottom of the industry.
Regarding other unions, that question is for another time.
FWIW: BUT one thing I will definately say right now so there can be no mistake AND before 700 starts feeding the idea that I want to start my own union, I will say that is nonsense. Quote this 100 times, "I am not going to waste any energy today, or ANYTIME in the future, starting my own union or being part of any campaign by anyone or anything to push for a union that is not already on USAIRWAYS/America West property. Not anywhere, Not anytime, NO how, no way." I hope that is clear.
The bottom line is the IAM sucks and we can go from there if there ever is another election.
regards,
The company is making significanly less company contributions into the IAM pension plan than before with the 401k. Much less for full timers, and ridiculusly less for part timers, who make up 39% of the system.
Don't let 700 confuse you with his BS. He uses no references and only runs his mouth. He still thinks that the 401k for fleet service was employee contributions only.
He is either ignorant to the facts, delusional, or using intentional deceit. And I stand behind this with my name, something that he can't do since he is blowing smoke.
regards,
Look at 92?????? Please bring '92 back. I thought we already covered this?
Repeat after me 700, one more time.
This is '92 [pre-IAM'd]: $17.88, paid sick time, no loss of seniority if laid off, 2,000 more jobs, more stations, more vacation, shift differ, unlimited shift trades, 401k where company paid up to 10% total earnings into it, profit sharing. And I probably missed a half dozen other things that I could 'dig up' in the PPG source I have.
Now this is 92' on drugs....or in other words, IAM 2006:
Wipe out all of the above. Also subtract -$500 more out of your wallet to pay dues. And no hope of any future % other than 3% over the next 4 years plus throw in another 3-4 years without raises due to IAM piss clam negotiations.
Add the following:
tax deductions for some workers for dues. And $15.60 for the majority of stations.
Any questions?
Fleet service got IAM'd dude. I'm just pointing to the scoreboard as you talk on the field. Do us all a favor and just take a knee. And thanks for pointing out '92, people need to be reminded how much more they had without the IAM, even 15 years ago.
regards,
Lets look at your track record.
You tried so start your own union filed short of cards and cause a one year bar during that bar the bloodbath of 1992 happened.
Then you try to sell your name list to the ibt for a job, they refuse you.
The IAM comes into power, your get a grievance committee job, and then you start your own path again, the company tries to fire you over your web page (The Big Picture) and the IAM saves your job.
Then you start FSU and raid the IAM, the IAM removes you from grievance job as you promote duel unionism, that fails once again, then you start the AGW which raids the IAM again, you fail once again. You appoint yourself into leadership roles with both failed unions you tried to start.
And according to sources in the TWU in PHX you have approached them, it took the TWU local President in DFW to contact the PHX local to let them know you tried to raid American Airlines.
This is not 1992, 9/11 has happened, two trips through bankrupcty has happened, DL, NW and UA all are or were in bankruptcy and record fuel prices. AA, CO, DL, NW and UA all take concessions. Has your head been buried in the sand?
How many airlines have failed since 1992 because of the bad economic conditions?
Numerous!
You tried so start your own union filed short of cards and cause a one year bar during that bar the bloodbath of 1992 happened.
Then you try to sell your name list to the ibt for a job, they refuse you.
The IAM comes into power, your get a grievance committee job, and then you start your own path again, the company tries to fire you over your web page (The Big Picture) and the IAM saves your job.
Then you start FSU and raid the IAM, the IAM removes you from grievance job as you promote duel unionism, that fails once again, then you start the AGW which raids the IAM again, you fail once again. You appoint yourself into leadership roles with both failed unions you tried to start.
And according to sources in the TWU in PHX you have approached them, it took the TWU local President in DFW to contact the PHX local to let them know you tried to raid American Airlines.
This is not 1992, 9/11 has happened, two trips through bankrupcty has happened, DL, NW and UA all are or were in bankruptcy and record fuel prices. AA, CO, DL, NW and UA all take concessions. Has your head been buried in the sand?
How many airlines have failed since 1992 because of the bad economic conditions?
Numerous!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #51
700, I'm not seeking anyone's vote so go ahead and make me out like the world's biggest ####. My opinion is separate from the facts against the IAM, which may be soliciting votes if there is an election.
At any rate, I have a bit of time right now so I'll answer some of your false accusations above that you can't put your name behind without putting yourself at risk of possible legal action. But to the moderators, I took no offense to 700, I'll simply respond.
1. Yes, I withdrew a petition from the NMB because I was short on cards. However, I have lost count on how many times the IAM has done this.
2. The IAM never saved my job. Your claim is ludicrous and nuts. How can a company 'try to fire someone'? I'm confused. Either they fire someone, suspend someone, or they don't. 700, your utter and complete disregard for the facts seems to be the reason why your best in character is sitting behind a handle, while my best is to stand behind my name.
FWIW: I never was suspended for any job I ever had. The actual discipline you refer to was just a 'step'. But I still fought it because I thought it unwarrented. I figured, "what the hell".
However, the 18 months of the durational discipline was served so there was no further need to grieve.
3. Your continual mention of me trying to seel a name list is a joke. Believe what you though.
4. I have no idea if there was a source in DFW for the TWU. I suppose it could be true that some Local person in DFW could have talked to the TWU about me. Many of them also read this board and would have seen your silly post about me also. Big deal, I communicated with emails to the TWU in which they knew exactly who I was since I myself made it clear to them, never told them I would vote for them, and that I wanted to do what needed to be done to get rid of the IAM.
As a side, 700 your remarks are very 'tabloid'. You say you have sources but share none. The reason why I answered the above is for the amusement of this board and the fact that I have to do something for the next 20 minutes until the roast needs taken out of the oven.
regards,
Funny how you sugarcoat what transpired.
During the Fleet Service campaign numerous ibt supporters told the IAM and USWA exactly about you, don't you remember the ibt gave their support to the IAM when they failed to reach the runoff.
You filed short, not withdrawn, that is they there was a one year bar, the NMB dismissed your petition.
Now lets see how is clouding the issue.
The twu in PHX was contacted by the DFW president and informed them of you raiding AA.
And why did you not respond to your removal of office and the two other unions you started?
One more thing, you swore an oath to uphold the IAM constitution yet you were convicted of dual unionism, does your word mean anything?
The IAM has never filed short on card in the Airline Industry.
And why did you completely ignore the airlines and the economic conditions?
During the Fleet Service campaign numerous ibt supporters told the IAM and USWA exactly about you, don't you remember the ibt gave their support to the IAM when they failed to reach the runoff.
You filed short, not withdrawn, that is they there was a one year bar, the NMB dismissed your petition.
Now lets see how is clouding the issue.
The twu in PHX was contacted by the DFW president and informed them of you raiding AA.
And why did you not respond to your removal of office and the two other unions you started?
One more thing, you swore an oath to uphold the IAM constitution yet you were convicted of dual unionism, does your word mean anything?
The IAM has never filed short on card in the Airline Industry.
And why did you completely ignore the airlines and the economic conditions?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #53
700, dinner was good. Got a few minutes to digest.
700 your accusations are, shall I say, very nursery crimelike.
1. Oops, you got me on that one 700. Yes, Yes, and a 1,000 times yes, I violated the IAM constitution and am forever branded. BUT implicit in my oath is that I don't throw away my superceding Civil rights, in this case, the right to organize or change representatives.
FWIW: I resigned my position by letter to MC. I think they may have had some goofy kangaroo court trial but I can't speak to that because I didn't give it any recognition. Who knows, maybe they did remove me from office. Dunno but no big deal.
2. 700, let me be clear, I don't care if DFW, or any other station contacted the TWU about me. My emails to TWU loyalist were upfront and exlusive to eliminating the IAMugged union from your property. My position has not wavered on this.
OK, since by omission, you admit there is NOTHING the IAM has done for fleet service. You point to the industry and the times as a scapegoat for the IAM. Sorry 700, simply pointing to the industry and shouting that fleet service should 'take one for the team' isn't worth $500 a year. Amazingly, 141 didn't point to the industry when they had all their airlines in BK [Aloha, UA, US, Hawaiin] and lost thousands of members, pay and benefit reductions YET 'hiked' dues for the Bo$$es and hired more goons. Geez, sure wish they would have pointed to the industry and 911 as a way to relieve dues.
Show me, show others, where the IAmugged union has made a difference 'Today' with fleet service. Where's the difference, bud?
We're waiting.
Is the IAM still legitimate? How????
Answer these questions with good argument and 'good sense' as opposed to pointing fingers and personal attacks against those who stand behind their name while you have forever only been good enough to stand behind your curtain?
regards,
The IAM had done plenty for fleet service, but you would rather tear it apart then to admit the economics of the industry has caused the problems and not the IAM.
Before 9/11 the IAM has done plenty for Fleet Service:
Gauranteed Raises
Vacation
Sick time
OJI protection
Greivance Procedure
Scope Language protections to stop the outsourcing
You know all those things that you helped the company take away from your fellow Fleet Service Brothers and Sisters, or did you conviently forget that?
Post 9/11 and bankrtupcy the IAM was an advocate for fleet service, you got a pension out of it and the company was forced to let your fleet service brothers and sisters vote on any concessions and if my memory serves me right they ratified concessions three times, even after the IAM's Fleet Service CBA was abrogated.
Last time I checked the twu took massive concessions at AA without being in bankruptcy and at HP they have the lowest cost contract of the airlines.
9/11 and two bankruptcies have certainly takens its toll on the airlines and its employees but you would rather forget about that and attack the IAM then to accept the reality of economy.
Before 9/11 the IAM has done plenty for Fleet Service:
Gauranteed Raises
Vacation
Sick time
OJI protection
Greivance Procedure
Scope Language protections to stop the outsourcing
You know all those things that you helped the company take away from your fellow Fleet Service Brothers and Sisters, or did you conviently forget that?
Post 9/11 and bankrtupcy the IAM was an advocate for fleet service, you got a pension out of it and the company was forced to let your fleet service brothers and sisters vote on any concessions and if my memory serves me right they ratified concessions three times, even after the IAM's Fleet Service CBA was abrogated.
Last time I checked the twu took massive concessions at AA without being in bankruptcy and at HP they have the lowest cost contract of the airlines.
9/11 and two bankruptcies have certainly takens its toll on the airlines and its employees but you would rather forget about that and attack the IAM then to accept the reality of economy.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #56
700, I'm not going to dispute your findings on the TWU. What you have failed to show is that the IAm was a difference when the workers needed them, even tough non-union workers went throught the SAME 911 terrorist attacks, are in the SAME industry, BUT came out with signifcantly better wages/benefits.
The only thing 'you mention' as a positive is the IAM pension, however it was actually a negative and $48.2 million concession. You got your wires crossed on that one, kindly go back and 'review' your sources.
So you have mentioned nothing in support of your position.
Also, your statements about the IAm never filing short on cards in the airline industry and putting 'bars' is either delusional or something you heard from the IAM priest and you took as faith and kept it 'unchecked'.
FWIW: go to the NMB site, it will only take a minute. I pulled one case up on 10-4-04 where the IAM filed short on cards and placed a bar on the workers.
The following is a cut and paste
"The investigator investigation established that the organization [insert IAmugged union here] had failed to support its application with the required # of authorizations from employees in the craft. Therefore, the board finds no basis upon which to proceed in this matter and the application is hereby dismissed subject to the 1 year bar."
Just pointing to the scoreboard 700.
regards,
CAL was in bankruptcy in 1983, and one other time I believe, I was talking about 1992 and on. But thanks.
You also have Aloha, Hawaiian, and countless others.
When are you going to answer or refute the real issue Tim?
All you are trying to do is deflect, the facts are black and white what has happened to the airline industry since 9/11, the Iraqi War and record fuel prices.
140 airlines have filed bankruptcy since 1978 and deregulation and numerous ones went out of business, care to dispute that fact?
Guess you cant refute the facts to you have to deflect and dodge.
You also have Aloha, Hawaiian, and countless others.
When are you going to answer or refute the real issue Tim?
All you are trying to do is deflect, the facts are black and white what has happened to the airline industry since 9/11, the Iraqi War and record fuel prices.
140 airlines have filed bankruptcy since 1978 and deregulation and numerous ones went out of business, care to dispute that fact?
Guess you cant refute the facts to you have to deflect and dodge.
700,
I know this is going to be hard for you to do, but i'll ask anyway. Would you name what good the iam has done for the ramp agents since 911? Not before, not during, but from 911 to the present. I don't care about other airlines compared to US. I want you to say what they have done for US and no one but US since 911. I don't think that I can ask it any clearer or more straight to the point than that. I'm convinced though, that you will find a way to wiggle out of giving a straight answer. The ball is in your court.
I know this is going to be hard for you to do, but i'll ask anyway. Would you name what good the iam has done for the ramp agents since 911? Not before, not during, but from 911 to the present. I don't care about other airlines compared to US. I want you to say what they have done for US and no one but US since 911. I don't think that I can ask it any clearer or more straight to the point than that. I'm convinced though, that you will find a way to wiggle out of giving a straight answer. The ball is in your court.
IAM Pension, protected the majority of the scope language, stood up for the members against the company in court during both the bankruptcies.
You still have the grievance procedure, safety and health provisions and everything else in your contract and have not gone back to being employees at will where the company can change things daily like they did when the PPG was in effect.
But unfortunately there were casualties since the laws protect the companies and not the employees.
And that is just for fleet, not M&R where we still do the majority of heavy mtc in-house.
You still have the grievance procedure, safety and health provisions and everything else in your contract and have not gone back to being employees at will where the company can change things daily like they did when the PPG was in effect.
But unfortunately there were casualties since the laws protect the companies and not the employees.
And that is just for fleet, not M&R where we still do the majority of heavy mtc in-house.
To do that maint in house cost each mech mulitple $$$$
and to keep utility also cost each mech $$$
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