LUV workers -- how much of today''s WSJ article is true??

[A320Fan]

For what it is worth, SWA flight attendants were conducting informational picketing outside of LAX T1 yesterday around 1pm on the departures level. I was very surprised to see this. The information on the handouts they were passing out is as follows:

It''s About Time....

Southwest Airlines Flight Attendants commit years of service to the company to retire with no insurance or pension.

Southwest Airlines Flight Attendants work many unpaid hours each day even cleaning the aircraft between flights without earning a penny.

Southwest Airlines Flight Attendants work more days a month on average than other airlines resulting in less time with their families.


Southwest Customers...
Please take a moment of your time to show to show your appreciation and support for Southwest Flight Attendants.

TWU Local 556


Even though I was catching a flight on HP, I stopped to get info since I have never seen this before and probably never will again. I even shot a few pictures and a movie of the picketing, so if there are still some people that do not believe that there are WN employees upset with the working conditions I will send it by email. I will also be happy to scan the information card if anyone desires to view it.

Regards

A320Fan

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 7/18/2003 5:58:29 PM A320Fan wrote:

I even shot a few pictures and a movie of the picketing, so if there are still some people that do not believe that there are WN employees upset with the working conditions I will send it by email. I will also be happy to scan the information card if anyone desires to view it.

Regards

A320Fan

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Have you ever heard of "labor negotiations"? FWIW, rampers had informational picketing during their negotiations. I suppose the big difference here is that the FA''s are conducting info pickets, rather than threatening CHAOS (tm) which would impact their customers...the ones who make their paychecks possible.​

 

[swflyer]

Fred,

Thanks for the question.

Avg. 5 flights per day, 5 - :30 a/c turns X 4 day trip X four weeks in a month = 24 hours.

That was a basic example, most f/a''s at SWA work more than their line.

Res4LUV,

Appreciate the support!!! We really want to get the contract done so we can expand the airline. No growth has been a drag, and if we get done, labor rates are known through 2005 when the mechanics open.

According to an original f/a on my plane today, who''s been topped out since 1981 (yes, the third digit is an "8"), she has no COLA or profitability bonus.

I know we''re asking for fewer steps to top out and am sure it''s based on the experience of the CS/RES group.

Thanks again!!!

 

[hobbes]

"Even though I was catching a flight on HP, I stopped to get info since I have never seen this before and probably never will again. I even shot a few pictures and a movie of the picketing, so if there are still some people that do not believe that there are WN employees upset with the working conditions I will send it by email. I will also be happy to scan the information card if anyone desires to view it."

Your comments are misleading, A320Fan. You imply that nobody believes there''s such a thing as a WN employee who has a gripe with their company. Let me give you a hint: there''s no such thing as a perfect company, and even happy employees like me have a few things they would change if given their way.

But if you really want to measure the relative content of Southwest''s employees, ask those picketing F/As if they''d rather be working at AA or almost any other carrier in America. I could almost guarantee that not a one of them would say "yes." Even the most passionate pro-union F/As that I''ve met at SWA still have an incredible loyalty to the company at the same time. I''ve personally always found that interesting about us.

This is a negotiation, and informational picketing is common when one side feels they aren''t getting all they want, or they want to put more pressure on the company. It happened with the TWU 555 negotiations, as well, and it''s a common tactic employed by all unions. Even Southwest''s. And although I''m not sure the informational picketing is an effective strategy (I think most airline customers have become numb to it, to be quite honest), it does allow the union to get the word out about what their bargaining for.

I sincerely hope our F/As get a decent raise, although I don''t necessarily agree with some of the propoganda circulated in the flyer you site. No, our F/As don''t get a pension. But guess what? NONE of us do last time I checked. But they don''t mention that they have profitsharing (which can equal about 14%of their paycheck in a good year) and a 401k plan with a company match up to 7%. And given the fact that most pensions at the other airlines are underfunded and mismanaged, I quite frankly wouldn''t want a pension. But I guess that''s part of propoganda game...only telling your side of the story.

swflyer, I hope this negotiation wraps up soon for y''all, and that you get a contract you''re happy with. I have a deep respect for the work that y''all do, and I forever have friends that are talking about their great SWA experiences due to your work. LUV ya!

 

[Fred Ziffel]

>>Avg. 5 flights per day, 5 - :30 a/c turns X 4 day trip X four weeks in a month = 24 hours.<<

If everyone was cleaning for 30 minutes on every turn, your mathematics would be closer to being correct. But what about cellphone calls to husband/boyfriend/kids/daycare provider? What about heading onto the ramp for a smoke? What about running into the terminal to get food or rummaging around in your food bag? What about gabbing with the oncoming crew during a crew change? I''m not saying that you shouldn''t be doing these things, rather I am saying that your embellishment of the time actually spent cleaning weakens your argument considerably.

 

[swflyer]

Okay Fred, let's review.


My original post said 25 hours (average). I'm going to assume (dangerous!!) that you know what "average" means.


You asked for the math, and I gave you a perfectly plausible example, which you shot down with some interesting "what about.."'s. Interesting in that they show the flight attendants scrambling to do some pretty basic stuff (finding something to eat, smoking, etc.) that we currently don't have breaks for, since we're required to clean the aircraft. One flight attendant must be onboard at all times passengers are present. (For those of you keeping score, that'd pretty much be the whole time, thanks to our awesome OPS agents who turn a plane like no other airline).


I know that's not what you meant , but it sure went a long way to demonstrate the glamour of a 10 1/2 hour duty day.


Here's my "cleaning time" for June. I worked 132 trips for pay, 16 days of duty, 27.46 hours of unpaid time in between flights. BTW, I don't smoke, am not married, have no kids, eat during flight over a trash can, and am REALLY conscious of talk time in the jetway, which would only apply during a crew change (hopefully, only once a day).


I DO NOT speak for the Negotiating Team, but maybe the "cleaning" issue is one example of where flight attendants give SWA "free time" for which we'd like to be compensated. I like working hard and being productive. I like being profitable and growing. I'd like to be compensated for my contribution to those Corporate goals.

Since "My Team Speaks For Me", I'm going to stop hashing over small points in this forum. What matters is what's being discussed at the bargaining table and my original post was my answer to whatkindoffreshhell's question.

As usual, all comments are IMHO. Thankyouverymuch!

 

[JS]

What is this B.S. about flight attendants not being paid during the 30 minute turn? That is false.

Cleaning the aircraft "for free" would be true only if you come to the airport, meeet the plane at the gate, clean it, leave the plane when boarding begins, and then go back home (or repeat with another flight, never actually flying out of the aiport).

Presumably you don''t do that, because you get paid to come to the airport and work the flight. You can divvy up the dollars Southwest pays you among the total number of hours, flights, miles, you name it, that you work, in any way you want.

Your little informational picketing might work on the masses that don''t understand basic mathematics and economics, but it doesn''t work on me. I actually went over to T1 at LAX recently but I didn''t see any picketing. So sorry I missed it.

 

[Skyhungry]

JS,

Before you bash the Flight Attendants you might want to read their contract. JS You are entitled to your opinion, but it seems by your post that you think you know what you are talking about. The key word is "think" and I "think" you are wrong. Just thinking out loud.

 

[JS]

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On 7/22/2003 4:38:24 PM Skyhungry wrote:

JS,

Before you bash the Flight Attendants you might want to read their contract. JS You are entitled to your opinion, but it seems by your post that you think you know what you are talking about. The key word is "think" and I "think" you are wrong. Just thinking out loud.

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I don't have the contract in front of me, but based on what I've read on this bulletin board, the flight attendants are paid by the trip (by the mile, basically), with DAL-HOU being the definition of 1 trip.

OK, now back to the substance of my post...

 

[KCFlyer]

JS - you''re a little too anti labor here...Most other airlines in the past, FA''s were contractually prohibited from cleaning the aircraft. That''s what they had cleaners for. That''s also why their costs got out of control. When the doors open, most FA''s (not just SWA FA''s) aren''t "on the clock" anymore. I am sure that the argument could be made that a "trip" (the way SWA pilots and FA''s are paid) entails everthing from when they punch in to when they go "home" at night. But SWA has such a short time between flights that it makes it difficult to get off the plane to get little things....like lunch or dinner. Now, the way things are, they could either pay the FA''s a bit more to cover the cleaning duties, or they could kill the model by increasing the turn times in order to give the crew a chance to grab something to eat. As a stockholder, I''d rather they bump up their pay a bit. And I think that they will get a contract that most will find fair.

The infopickets do tell only one side of the story...and from what I read in some of this thread, there were some "embellishments" and omissions. To mention the lack of a pension plan...well they most likely won''t get one. They did, however, omit the amount of the 401K contribution that the company makes, and from what I gathered on another board, the company match to the 401K is NOT in company stock. So they do have a lot of good things. But it''s all part of the "game" of negotiations. I just thank the FA''s for not doing the CHAOS(tm) thing.

Finally...to any LUV FA''s - I''m going MCI-MSY in early August....how many FA''s usually work a flight? - I thought I''d buy them a deli sandwich at the airport and bring it to them on board, and I don''t want to leave anyone out.

 

[JS]

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On 7/22/2003 5:52:33 PM KCFlyer wrote:


JS - you''re a little too anti labor here...Most other airlines in the past, FA''s were contractually prohibited from cleaning the aircraft.&nbsp; That''s what they had cleaners for.&nbsp; That''s also why their costs&nbsp;got out of control.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; When the doors open, most FA''s (not just SWA FA''s) aren''t "on the clock" anymore.&nbsp; I am sure that the argument could be made that a "trip" (the way SWA pilots and FA''s are paid) entails everthing from when they punch in to when they go "home" at night.&nbsp;&nbsp; But SWA has such a short time between flights that it makes it difficult&nbsp; to get off the plane to get little things....like lunch or dinner.&nbsp; Now, the way things are, they could either pay the FA''s a bit more to cover the cleaning duties, or they could kill the model by increasing the turn times in order to give the crew a chance to grab something to eat.&nbsp;&nbsp; As a stockholder, I''d rather they bump up their pay a bit.&nbsp; And I think that they will get a contract that most will find fair.&nbsp;

The infopickets do tell only one side of the story...and from what I&nbsp; read in some of this thread, there were some "embellishments" and omissions.&nbsp; To mention the lack of a pension plan...well they most likely won''t get one.&nbsp; They did, however, omit the amount of the 401K contribution that the company makes, and from what I gathered on another board, the company match to the 401K is NOT in company stock.&nbsp; So they do have a lot of good things.&nbsp; But it''s all part of the "game" of negotiations.&nbsp; I just thank the FA''s for not doing the CHAOS(tm) thing.&nbsp;

Finally...to any LUV FA''s - I''m going MCI-MSY in early August....how many FA''s usually work a flight? - I thought I''d buy them a deli sandwich at the airport and bring it to them on board, and I don''t want to leave anyone out.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

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I am not anti-labor. I am anti-new math and anti-fuzzy math.

Example: let''s say a flight attendant works two flights a day. Each flight has 2 hours 30 minutes of block time, 2 hours of actual flight time, covers a distance of 875 miles, and requires a total of 5 hours and 50 minutes on duty, from start to finish.

Which of the following pay scales would the flight attendant prefer:

$140 per day
$70 per flight
$28 per block hour
$35 per actual flight hour
8 cents per mile flown
$24 per duty hour

 

[KCFlyer]

Hypothetical situation for you JS - flights running late out of MDW - gets into MCI at 12:00. scheduled to depart at 12:10 - it''s going to be late. Rampers are waiting to unload and reload plane. Passengers deplane and gate agent is ready to send new passengers on board. They begin boarding at 12:08 and plane is ready to push at 12:17. It''s going to LAX, so they FA''s had to hustle to get the cabin in shape for a 4 houir flight. You haven''t eaten yet. How much would YOU like to be paid for the trip?

 

[Skyhungry]

JS Wrote:

"I don''t have the contract in front of me, but based on what I''ve read on this bulletin board, the flight attendants are paid by the trip (by the mile, basically), with DAL-HOU being the definition of 1 trip.

OK, now back to the substance of my post..."


JS,

What Substance? You do not know what you are talking about. You admitted to not reading their contract and basing your information from a BB. Further more, unless you have walked in their shoes you shoud not be critisizing them for wanting better compensation or wanting to provide more for their families. Give me a break

 

[JS]

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On 7/22/2003 6:25:24 PM KCFlyer wrote:


Hypothetical situation for you JS - flights running late out of MDW - gets into MCI at 12:00.&nbsp; scheduled to depart at 12:10 - it''s going to be late.&nbsp; Rampers are waiting to unload and reload plane.&nbsp; Passengers deplane and gate agent is ready to send new passengers on board.&nbsp; They begin boarding at 12:08 and plane is ready to push at 12:17.&nbsp; It''s going to LAX, so they FA''s had to hustle to get the cabin in shape for a&nbsp;4 houir flight.&nbsp; &nbsp; You haven''t eaten yet.&nbsp; How much would YOU like to be paid for the trip?&nbsp;

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I would want to be paid exactly the same as any other trip. What difference does it make? It''s called a job. Come to work, bring your food if necessary, make your customers happy, and collect a paycheck.

Are you suggesting the flight attendants should be paid more when there''s a delay? Or that the plane should be held so the flight attendants can browse the terminal''s food selection?

 

[JS]

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On 7/22/2003 7:00:15 PM Skyhungry wrote:

JS,

What Substance? You do not know what you are talking about. You admitted to not reading their contract and basing your information from a BB. Further more, unless you have walked in their shoes you shoud not be critisizing them for wanting better compensation or wanting to provide more for their families. Give me a break


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OK, you tell me. How are the flight attendants paid? By the hour? Annual salary? Come on, quit beating around the bush.

If the flight attendants want to be paid more, then just say so. I wasn''t commenting on that. What irritates me is when they whine that they aren''t being "paid" for cleaning the plane during the turns, because that is not true.