Nov/Dec 2013 Fleet Service Discussion

[Tim Nelson]

I think being intellectually dishonest is about as kind a way as can be put on what I witnessed on various forums about the UA ta.On the other hand I know a shop steward here in CLT that would make a better agc than anyone I know that is doing it.He won't do it though, two reasons the time commitment and he'd never be a yes man for whoever was at the top of the ticket.

Time commitment i understand but nobody has to b a yes man. Maccarone wasnt a yes man. If opposition candidates win, i dont think any of them will be delaney yes men. I know i wont.

 

[Tim Nelson]

My point was that I think someone would get much more respect by double slating some people, than to put people on a ticket for such an important position as a AGC that doesn't even know how to do a step 2 grievance. As elementary as you say they are, I know that was the situation on the last election. Not worried about the NC. If a different ticket wins and it changes, then that's for them to decide. I don't sweat things like that. My concern is some of the people that are chose do such an important position as AGC

Things dont always end up how we would like when money can often make people stand down and lose the vouceof the people.
When i put fo on a ballot i saw someone who might not be a leader but had academic integrity and a good history of labor. I dont think he was even a shop steward. Someone who shoyldnt lead negoriations but someone i felt capable of discussion and insight. I put nh in as a leader of the group. Someone that folks could get behind. It staeted off well with nicky intumidating station managers and slamming doors but ah dropped the dime on him to delaney then delaney removed him as lead and wanted a more cozy relationship with management. I became disappointed as i felt these guys lost their stones. Mc had a bit of fire early on and wanted to arbitrate the attendane grievance and unapproved word changes in our contract butdelaney B slapped him and mc all but dialed out.
Essentually nobody wants to fight anymore and mostly what is heard is "the nmb this..", "the company can do that.." verbage. And a great putting off of things that matter. Everything from robbed agains grievance to the united contract simply isnt getting done. As far as double slate(ing), How would a candidate support both tickets?

 

[cltrat]

these examples you cite are probably more what i meant than a yes man, he wouldn't stand for that bs

 

[Solidarity]

Double slating....hell triple slating... Talk to RR in CLT for Grievance Committee about how to do that!!

 

[Jester]

Tim,
 
I completely agree with you in terms of an educated representation.  Just having a group of educated AGC's from various backgrounds and college experiences would be able to work together and draw upon each other in areas for which they are lacking some expertise.  Many years ago when I worked in corporate, I knew that I could pick-up the phone and speak with another educated professional within the organization to explain some concept or bounce some idea off of them.
 
Unfortunately, I think too many of our leadership suffer from The Dunning-Kruger Effect having delusions of adequacy because the membership elected them and they feed each other about their "superior" abilities.  I think having some educational standards would help because I realized the more I learned, the more questions I had in other related topics.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Double slating....hell triple slating... Talk to RR in CLT for Grievance Committee about how to do that!!

Last district election there were 4 candidates who were at least double slated, one of which was triple slated.
Basically to fill up a ticket since a ballot needs all spots voted upon or that particular office is disqualified for everyone else.
I dont remember any recent district election where there wasnt double slating.
Its difficult putting tickets together, im glad im not bothering with that this time.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,
 
I completely agree with you in terms of an educated representation.  Just having a group of educated AGC's from various backgrounds and college experiences would be able to work together and draw upon each other in areas for which they are lacking some expertise.  Many years ago when I worked in corporate, I knew that I could pick-up the phone and speak with another educated professional within the organization to explain some concept or bounce some idea off of them.
 
Unfortunately, I think too many of our leadership suffer from The Dunning-Kruger Effect having delusions of adequacy because the membership elected them and they feed each other about their "superior" abilities.  I think having some educational standards would help because I realized the more I learned, the more questions I had in other related topics.

Jester,
IMo there is a 3 prong brick wall (ha ha) that NECESSARILYrequires some formally accredidated education.
1. Prong one
Research research research. A formal education shows me that an individual has some basic knowledge of finding information and establishing a position by referencing key items. This skillset is needed to understand what group of items should be researched. Laws, financial documents, processes, contracts, etc.
2. Prong two
The labor rep will always be there for its own interest NOT the nc. So the labor rep will try to move an unsuspecting nc off of its positions in order to reduce things to something that could even be pathetic just to get a deal. To do this, they will get "Top experts" ha ha to formulate an opinion that speeds things along and challenges the hope of a nc. At united, this meant ira gottlieb writing a retarded letter which basically suggest that the united membershipwill be doomed by congress if ta2 fails. The intimidation is real because no nc wants to look stupid questioning someone with a law degree. The reality of the situation was that ira gottliebs legal position was fraud and not one single airline case could be cited. But the ua nc was clueless.
Same thing happened with me on my organizing campaign at airtran. Once the southwest merger was announced, Roach said he was pulling the plug on it and that the iam would just accrete the airtran employees. What he didnt know was that i wasnt going to give up because all the airtran employees would have been greatly hosed by the iam and twu. So i forced roach not to pull the plug. Nuff said. Knowing leverage, labor history, merger history, laws, etc was needed for me to understand what would happen if the iam walked from this campaign.

As an aside, education itself isnt anything without understanding. When someone on the nc claims he didnt even bother reading and digesting the united contract, that is either politics at play or just a complete and thorough lack of understanding of the processes, strategies, and commitment of negotiations. The united contract blowed so hisanswer tried to sidestep that he had a knowledge of it that he digested. Essentually washing the blood off of hishands.
At any rate im rambling and dont have time to finish my thought or review my thoughts nonetheless ill hit submit.

 

[T5towbar]

Couple of things, you say it's up to the membership, but let's face it, most of the membership have no idea who they are voting for on a ticket. That's why I say the people leading these tickets needs to do a much better job on choosing their candidates. Also who says someone has to agree to be on both tickets? Nothing stops a person from putting them on a slate as far as I know. Most people takes someone else's word on who they should vote for. I for one will make sure people know when people are running just for a position or when they are running for the members. To tell someone you want them to vote for a person for AGC that hasn't even done a step 2 hearing before. Come on. Get real. That's not for the membership I think you would have to agree?

CB, that is so true.
But a lot of people don't like the politics of a union. Just like the politics on a national and or local level. Until it affects them directly. Most of my fellow workers were unorganized and the feel like they have been cheated to a certain agree. And many will be affected directly after all is said and done. Like lying politicians, many bought into the sales job without having a concerting and a jaundiced eye. Most don't know the candidates or their platforms. You have to take the time to do so. That's time a lot of people won't make. Speaking for myself, I do not have the time and the true commitment to be a union officer. To do so, you can't be a "yes man" and rubber stamps what the leadership wants. You have to be accountable to the people under you. PERIOD.

But I have some hope. There are some very good people that will help this district. We had them since before we became union. They spent their time trying to inform and organize us. We need a cleansing in this district, and in the local level as well. Definitely the National, after the Boeing mess.

 

[737823]

Tim some here have remarked the degrees members of the IAM Executive Council received are phony, do you share that view? I do question the value those degrees really being in their objectivity and interest in advancing best interests of the membership. As we have seen at UA, now Boeing and countless other examples it seems the leaders are working to secure the union (as an institution) rather than the members. I think Buffy is concerned if the members reject the Boeing proposal and the company moves forward with the other locations they will lose the $25 million in annual dues, as the members or DL 751 have said.

More like Labor leaders with GEDs and phony Diplomas collecting $200k/yr in salaries have gotten too comfortable and instead of leading the workers in rebellion against unfair laws just sit back and say we have to take it because thats who got elected. Unions used to lead their workers on strike for a nickel, because they knew there was more than that at stake, todays labor leaders say "Let them take it all, at least you still have a job(and I still get my $200k)" . For twenty years they have said "Live to fight another day, but that day never comes and each time we lose more and more regardless of whether the Democrats or Republicans are in charge. Sometimes I have to wonder who really hates the working class more, the Company Bosses or the Union Bosses who tell us to give away everything that Unions fought for but keep those same things for themselves. They force us to pay their salaries and fund Benefits that they sign away from us and then blame the government for them not doing their job of organizing a collective response to the assault on the working class.

Josh

 

[Jester]

Josh,
 
Let me say that a few years ago, I questioned the educational qualifications after reviewing the IAM multi-colored fish wrap mailed to my home providing individual bios to the EC (?).  I am trying to recall, but I think there was one degreed person, and from an institution I never really heard much about prior.  I remarked that if skill set required against Management involved fixing pay phones and changing tires, then we were in great shape!
 
I think the cop-out answer is that the IAM will hire professional advisors for those glaring weaknesses within our Leadership.  Personally, I feel that people who are completely dependent upon outside advisors place themselves in a very dangerous position at the mercy of the ethics and abilities of 3rd parties with no skin in the game.

 

[psa8979]

2014 predictions. 1. LCC IAM F/S and M/R will vote and approve a CBA  2. The IAM and TWU will amalgamate to form the largest Airline Union and Represent the majority of AAL Union Workers  3. TB will continue to Lead the IAMATWU until he retires. 4. No Value/ AH will finally retire 5. TN and DL will become best friends again . HAPPY NEW YEAR and CHEERS !

 

[Tim Nelson]

2014 predictions. 1. LCC IAM F/S and M/R will vote and approve a CBA  2. The IAM and TWU will amalgamate to form the largest Airline Union and Represent the majority of AAL Union Workers  3. TB will continue to Lead the IAMATWU until he retires. 4. No Value/ AH will finally retire 5. TN and DL will become best friends again . HAPPY NEW YEAR and CHEERS !

Happy New Year psa8979.
I'd really like to see #1 the most.  Going into 2014 offers a lot of hope.  I remember back between 2000-2007 we didn't even know if the airline was going to stick around or close its doors.  That said, imo, 2014 will be the biggest fight of our careers. I think we are ready and a fair contract is in the balance.  Our membership will need patience to get what is fair.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Josh,
 
Let me say that a few years ago, I questioned the educational qualifications after reviewing the IAM multi-colored fish wrap mailed to my home providing individual bios to the EC (?).  I am trying to recall, but I think there was one degreed person, and from an institution I never really heard much about prior.  I remarked that if skill set required against Management involved fixing pay phones and changing tires, then we were in great shape!
 
I think the cop-out answer is that the IAM will hire professional advisors for those glaring weaknesses within our Leadership.  Personally, I feel that people who are completely dependent upon outside advisors place themselves in a very dangerous position at the mercy of the ethics and abilities of 3rd parties with no skin in the game.

+100000
 
This is where the lack of education kills the hopes of a NC and many others.  The IAM contracts with experts and then it leads the experts so that the experts can fashion and manufacture an opinion that agrees with the IAM position. Nothing against the IAM, most organizations do this, and all attorneys and experts are paid to do this. 
 
 At any rate, at US AIRWAYS, if history is our guide, the IAM will prey on the ignorance of the NC and  will have its attorney make some leading remarks about the,  "NMB this...." ,  or they will write complete heresy like they did at United and claim that if TA2 gets voted down then congress may impose something much more drastic.  The closer, TR will eventually do his 'reagonomics' with his laptop [I like ya tommy but you know its true] and conclude, "This is all that will ever be on the table.",  or "Let's take this and it will make us stronger for joint talks where we will really kick some arse!"  
 
Just remember, if scope isn't cleaned up a lot, then it's a sellout.  I really hope we don't have idiots trying to sell us, "We got Cinderella drop dead dates to bridge us to the joint talks".  Talk about putting things off and setting people up to pack their bags.   In the context of billion dollar profits [I think they project making $4 billion next year],  All current stations should at least be grandfathered, and flight activity bars should be dropped to lower levels.  If that doesn't happen, then the only question will be what bait will be used if they try to hoodwink the NC and then the membership.  As an aside, the US AIRWAYS NC does have more education on its side than what the United NC did. 
 
Getting back to the United model, anyone educated on labor history and the RLA would have taken Ira Gottlieb's letter and LTAO.  But because the United NC didn't have the skill set or understanding to ask questions or challenge the manufactured opinion,  they didn't want to look like dumb arses and decided to tuck it in.  Because the TA blowed, and the NC decided to justify kissing Delaney arse, they were forced to rent out their brains, decided to lie, and repeat what the IAM manufactured, i.e., 98% guaranteed job,  Full time commitment, best health care in the industry, etc.   Each of which is the exact opposite of reality.  Their health care is now the worst in the industry. They are on their way to 80% part time since there are NO FULL TIME PROTECTIONS,  and  about 2% protections.   Besides that, the language is also a disaster and basically says, "See Management".
 
For instance, there are no flight activity protections at all.  United can move flights to any station, other than 7, and build a hub or new focus station.  At US AIRWAYS,  4 stations were spelled out, and we seen how management isolated them eventually and downsized 3 of them before they became so weak and outnumbered that they lost their very union.  In mergers with major airlines, airlines ALWAYS downsize at least two hubs. Happened every time.  The last major, we saw DL downsize MEM and CVG.   Even mid majors will blow off one hub and a focus station.  US AIRWAYS finally put the nail in the PIT coffin and blew off LAS as a hub.   At United, out of the 8 hubs, two will go. Others will be downsized.  My hunch is that management will pick from the lakes where there is scope.  In a twisted way, I think CLE stays and starts picking up the East/West connecting service from ORD as well.  We've seen this play out before and it is the exact sorta thing we should expect in management/labor relations.  Unfortunately, it comes back to STUPID.  And labor is in sore need of brains.  It doesn't care anymore and if the boeing contract is any indication, the INTL has already packed up its fight for the working class.  Maybe that is why they are joining in with PETA and other organizations that fight for other social issues other than labor.

 

[737823]

Tim, why do you think Buffy wants the membership to roll over at Boeing? Do you think he is seriously concerned the IAM loses dues if they go to RTW states and downsize SEA area facilities? I hope they realize that having the District and International president telling the membership something completely different weakens their position and doesn't signal the membership is unified. On one hand it seems to some Boeing is overreaching and taking concessions when they are making record profits as well as squeezing the state and local governments, but even with the concessions the Boeing workers will still have a solid middle class lifestyle well above the national median income and leading benefits package.

Josh

 

[Jester]

Josh,
 
Here's a sensitive topic... what leverage does Fleet have, in general?  Pilots or FA's refusing to fly would shutdown an airline, and sure, if Fleet wasn't to work, it would cause a disruption, but I am always amazed on the number of people I meet who once worked the ramp but for whatever reason they left the airline business.  My point being is that replacing Fleet workers doesn't seem like a daunting challenge, even mechanics were replaced after striking at NWA, and they require considerably greater amounts of skill and certifications.
 
As much as I don't want to give the IAM any credit for the CBA presented to UA FSAs, I don't know what leverage was available otherwise.  As I said before, I am "happy enough" with the existing CBA and will use the greatest tool available to any bad deal being presented... the ability to say, "No."
 
Everyone speaks about some leverage of SOC, but the Company did reasonably well with two pilot groups and aircraft which never fully integrated even after 5 years.