Scab Hotels Cost NWA Big $$$

[finman]

Finman, what a spin meister you are. You must have worked at Enron or was it MCI-Worldcom. NWA was losing billions the same time as all the other legacies(along with some LCC's) and yet NWA management refused to go along with necessary fare increases. NWA management is a bunch of knuckleheads,like you, who need to be replaced with managers with some common sense. The management at NWA flew the airline industry right into the ground.

I don't want to spend too much time on it, since you seem to have it drilled into your head that your anectdotal memory of NWA not matching selected fare increases is the reason for the demise of the entire airline industry. I don't want to go back and reconcile the reasoning behind every decision, as I've explained how pricing decision are made, in general, in previous posts.

If you really wanted a bogeyman as it relates to pricing, it would be the Simplifares initiated by Delta in early 2004 that on their own have cost NWA between 100-150 million in annual revenue. Those fares put caps on one-way business fares and removed the saturday night stay requirement for discount fares.

I'm not sure what I'm spinning. I'm just trying to bring a fresh perspective on some areas of airline finance that may add some clarity to the discussion.

 

[wouldbefa]

The NWA scab program costing NWA big.

NWA is heading for Chapter 7 in a fast hurry, but Dougie Stealin' and his band of criminals still raking in the $$$$$....

What a racket...

http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S12114.html?cat=1

Wonder if they paid off the hotels they housed the replacemnt FA's in. The one we were in was supposedly demolished in october. I am sure that the one we were in a Schipol is screaming for payment, those folks at Schipol HN did their best to bump up the prices on everything. The silly thing is that they(NWA) trained folks who would have made excellent attendants, and are now working for competitors. The management shot themselves in the leg bigtime. On top of that they paid us then they didn't pay us . The old russian saying is that "the fish rottes from the head" seems to ring true for NWA, and the USA.

 

[finman]

Wonder if they paid off the hotels they housed the replacemnt FA's in. The one we were in was supposedly demolished in october. I am sure that the one we were in a Schipol is screaming for payment, those folks at Schipol HN did their best to bump up the prices on everything. The silly thing is that they(NWA) trained folks who would have made excellent attendants, and are now working for competitors. The management shot themselves in the leg bigtime. On top of that they paid us then they didn't pay us . The old russian saying is that "the fish rottes from the head" seems to ring true for NWA, and the USA.

I'm not sure what to take from that, but I don't think it's been explained how the pre-petition expenses are handled in bankruptcy court. All expenses incurred before the bankruptcy that weren't paid before the date of the filing are not bills that NWA is allowed to pay under US bankruptcy laws. That ended up including a lot of the hotels that were part of the contingency planning for mechanics and flight attendants.

As far as the contingency plan is concerned, NWA had to train some extra FA's to cover flying if there was a work action stemming from the AMFA strike. It would have been irresponsible to not do something to avoid a possible shortage of FA's. As it turned out, FA's came to work and didn't do a sick out, so the contingency force was not needed. Saying that was a bad decision would be like saying buying life insurance is a bad idea if you don't die.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Hackman, You have no clue as how to look at the whole picture do you? You pick out the smallest things to banter about. The cost of the hotels is but a drop in the bucket. I doubt that it even amounts to that.

Wouldbefa, are you so shallow that you can't see that there was a good enough possibility that the F/A's might support the mechanics, in a very small way they did it just wasn't near enough, that NWA put together a contingency plan just incase that did happen? Was it a waste of money? No, it was not for things still aren't stable here with the F/A's. If a call were put out right now wouldn't the majority of you guys be ready to jump at the opportunity? So some of you have found jobs with other carriers, that’s great and I hope the best for them. Looks as if it’s a win win situation ofr everyone involved. I would say that that was a successful project.

finman, you are going to have a tuff time explaining anything to these guys. First off they already know everything and the unions have totally brainwashed them. These guys were raised from birth to think the way they do and I am afraid that it is irreversible.

 

[aafsc]

Air fares are almost entirely price elastic, so yes, a $25 increase in fares will likely result in a net reduction in revenue, as poeple either don't fly or choose to fly other airlines. NWA charges as much as it can on every single route to squeeze every penny it can out of the passengers. If it were simple as raising all fares and the problem would be solved, don't you think that would have been done already? I don't try to pretend that I know anything about fixing airplanes, and you probably shouldn't pretend to know anything about airfare pricing. It pains me when I hear people make such oversimplified assumptions about pricing. Rest assured, NWA has a team of analysts that do nothing but scour through our prices and raise them as high as they can to ensure revenue maximization on every route.

The whole discussion on executive pay is getting a little tired. I get it. You don't have a clue what executives do or what their market rate is, so you choose to believe that it's all a country club mentality. I guess if that makes you feel better about yourself than so be it. In the grand scheme of things, their pay is a drop in the bucket, so I still don't know why it gets brought up so much. I'm just trying to add some balance to this board.

As an aside, an MBA gets a person in the door, but doesn't necessarily make them a leader in a large organization. Also, the board of directors hire the executives, and they are beholden to the stockholders, who don't want to pay executives any more than they're worth.

I realize that people are pretty much set in their opinions, but when presented with factual information from someone that has more familiarity with the topic at hand, it would probably add credibility to your future posts if you at least aknowledge the most basic and fundamental misrepresentations that get thrown around on this forum.

If you just want this board to be an echochamber of scab and management bashing, rather than an exchange of ideas from all sides, then I'm not sure what purpose it serves.

In my opinion, this industry could have been in a much different position economically if NW would not have shot down Crandall's value pricing initiative in the early 1990s. NW management has always been the spoiler when the others (AA 90% of the time) have tried to raise the fares.

 

[wouldbefa]

Hackman, You have no clue as how to look at the whole picture do you? You pick out the smallest things to banter about. The cost of the hotels is but a drop in the bucket. I doubt that it even amounts to that.

Wouldbefa, are you so shallow that you can't see that there was a good enough possibility that the F/A's might support the mechanics, in a very small way they did it just wasn't near enough, that NWA put together a contingency plan just incase that did happen? Was it a waste of money? No, it was not for things still aren't stable here with the F/A's. If a call were put out right now wouldn't the majority of you guys be ready to jump at the opportunity? So some of you have found jobs with other carriers, that’s great and I hope the best for them. Looks as if it’s a win win situation ofr everyone involved. I would say that that was a successful project.

It was and thanks to them I do have a backround in the biz. Read on the union site that they might be hireing replacements again, in case of any january problems. Would I or others jump at the chances of returning. I would have to think about that, I would have to be assured a job , and with my skills in 6 diffrent languages a positon in the overseas area. When I was interviewing with another airline I met a person who worked for a airline who hired scabs in the past. When a plane went down with these scab attendants the other attendants felt no sorrow for them. I was with a very good group of folks in amsterdam, and in my classes in St.Paul( save one). When I was "released" from my contract I wasn't angry but sad remembering all the good instructors, managers, and folks I was with . My dream was overseas but that will wait. Hope to be in Amsterdam again ,or Frankfurth.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

When a plane went down with these scab attendants the other attendants felt no sorrow for them.

These union die-hards have no sympathy for anyone not even themselves. You should here the bickering between them. Not all but most of the F/A's need to be kicked off of their high horse. I really do wish that they would strike so a new generation of F/A's would be brought into the industry. The "veterans" are mostly burnt out grouches.

Also it begins again with the F/A's. Bogus write-ups, ash-trays and ice-scoops are showing up in the Lavs again. If I were NWA I would make them an offer that the F/A's couldn't possibly accept and replace them just like they did with the mechanics. I have no sympathy for ignorance.

 

[chasbatl]

You should here the bickering between them.

I have no sympathy for ignorance.

It never fails, I know i can read your posts for a good laugh PussTO, sorta like your pre-madonna comment. Your ignorance is amusing. BTW for future posts it is HEAR and PRIMA DONNA.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

I also always enjoy your posts DEAD BIRD, I am amazed at how you have mastered the art of one-liners. It is nice to have you back. I figured you were grounded for the rest of the year.

 

[Saabmeister]

Hackman, You have no clue as how to look at the whole picture do you? You pick out the smallest things to banter about. The cost of the hotels is but a drop in the bucket. I doubt that it even amounts to that.

Wouldbefa, are you so shallow that you can't see that there was a good enough possibility that the F/A's might support the mechanics, in a very small way they did it just wasn't near enough, that NWA put together a contingency plan just incase that did happen? Was it a waste of money? No, it was not for things still aren't stable here with the F/A's. If a call were put out right now wouldn't the majority of you guys be ready to jump at the opportunity? So some of you have found jobs with other carriers, that’s great and I hope the best for them. Looks as if it’s a win win situation ofr everyone involved. I would say that that was a successful project.

finman, you are going to have a tuff time explaining anything to these guys. First off they already know everything and the unions have totally brainwashed them. These guys were raised from birth to think the way they do and I am afraid that it is irreversible.

Hackman and wouldbefa, you're going to have a tough time explaining anthing to the SCAB and the finman (executive? wannabe? who knows). They act like they know everything, and NWA management and god knows who else has brainwashed them. These guys have been raised since birth to think that, for some reason, woring class men and women fighting against pay and job cuts is for some reason bad, and that corporate executives are gods amongst men. Sadly, I'm afraid that is irreversible.

 

[Hackman]

Hackman, You have no clue as how to look at the whole picture do you? You pick out the smallest things to banter about. The cost of the hotels is but a drop in the bucket. I doubt that it even amounts to that.

Wouldbefa, are you so shallow that you can't see that there was a good enough possibility that the F/A's might support the mechanics, in a very small way they did it just wasn't near enough, that NWA put together a contingency plan just incase that did happen? Was it a waste of money? No, it was not for things still aren't stable here with the F/A's. If a call were put out right now wouldn't the majority of you guys be ready to jump at the opportunity? So some of you have found jobs with other carriers, that’s great and I hope the best for them. Looks as if it’s a win win situation ofr everyone involved. I would say that that was a successful project.

finman, you are going to have a tuff time explaining anything to these guys. First off they already know everything and the unions have totally brainwashed them. These guys were raised from birth to think the way they do and I am afraid that it is irreversible.

Well PlaytheCods, seeing that I've looked at the "whole picture" for nearly 20 years, I think I've seen enough. If you call NWA management criminals (yes finman, I will address you soon) spending over 100 million dollars they don't have on the "Scab Program" a drop in the bucket, you need to get out from your under your managers desk for a breath of air. Your merely a pawn, a stooge, and your being lied to and used by some of the worst liars, cheats, and illusionists in existence. They will wipe their a** with you, and flush you like yesterdays news. Read some NWA past history before you run your functional illiterate scab stained mouth here. Look at what NWA did to the state of Minnesota, and its employees in 1993. NWA cried poor mouth, bilked the money teat for all its worth, and have not paid anyone back and have no intention to ever try. Except now, to go for more of the same today, only worse.

Here smart guy, Read this; http://citypages.com/databank/26/1272/article13199.asp

Tell me I'm wrong and your right. Stay on at NWA 'Cods, please. You deserve it, and you'll get it, more than you wish for. :huh:

 

[Bob Owens]

'finman' date='Nov 19 2005, 08:49 AM' post='322639']
Air fares are almost entirely price elastic, so yes, a $25 increase in fares will likely result in a net reduction in revenue, as poeple either don't fly or choose to fly other airlines.

Oh really? Then if thats truly the case then fares would not change, however they do. The fact is you cant prove that a $25 increase in fares would force a substantial number of people to not fly.

NWA charges as much as it can on every single route to squeeze every penny it can out of the passengers. If it were simple as raising all fares and the problem would be solved, don't you think that would have been done already?

No I dont.The fact is that the airlines have more to gain at this point in time by losing money instead of making it. By engaging in a contest to see who can blled the most they hope to consolidate the industry and at the same time drive down wages.

The whole discussion on executive pay is getting a little tired.

Of course you are because your arguement is weak and you really do not want to get into how executive pay is really determoined.

I get it. You don't have a clue what executives do or what their market rate is, so you choose to believe that it's all a country club mentality. I guess if that makes you feel better about yourself than so be it. In the grand scheme of things, their pay is a drop in the bucket,

That "Their pay doesnt matter because in the grand scheme" line has ben around a long time too.

so I still don't know why it gets brought up so much.


It gets brought up because these guys are demanding that everyone else take pay cuts to make up for their incompetance while they reward themselves with bonuses and excessive pay.

I'm just trying to add some balance to this board.

BS

As an aside, an MBA gets a person in the door, but doesn't necessarily make them a leader in a large organization. Also, the board of directors hire the executives, and they are beholden to the stockholders, who don't want to pay executives any more than they're worth.

Yea yea, sounds good but we all know its BS. Most BODs are made up of executives so my scenario is more accurate than you want to admit.

I realize that people are pretty much set in their opinions, but when presented with factual information from someone that has more familiarity with the topic at hand, it would probably add credibility to your future posts if you at least aknowledge the most basic and fundamental misrepresentations that get thrown around on this forum.

Such as?

If you just want this board to be an echochamber of scab and management bashing, rather than an exchange of ideas from all sides, then I'm not sure what purpose it serves.

Who is stopping you?

 

[finman]

finman, you are going to have a tuff time explaining anything to these guys. First off they already know everything and the unions have totally brainwashed them. These guys were raised from birth to think the way they do and I am afraid that it is irreversible.

Unfortunately, it appears you right PTO. I must admit, I hope beyond hope that this board is not a representation of the broader rank and file union member in the airline industry. It's been very insightful getting a different perspective on the airline industry, but also very disheartening. It appears that logical explanations that explain the nature of what is occurring are shunned, while wild conspiracy theories are accepted without a moment's thought, so long as it fits the agenda of the "evil management" crowd.

I don't actually think that brainwashing is the culprit here. I think that poeple get very heavily invested in believing that things are a certain way. It's obvious to an impartial observer that there is nothing sinister about what is occurring, but rather an overdue adjusment to market conditions. This objective reality doesn't offer much comfort to a person that all of a sudden sees the value of their craft reduced by X% overnight. I have the utmost sympathy for those people, and I know that the vast majority of those people are skilled enough to adapt to the market, switch careers and likely end up in an even better place.

For my peace of mind, I'm going to assume that the vile rhetoric that often passes as discussion on this board is simply due to poeple venting their frustrations in the only way they can. It's probably therapuetic to some degree, although some of the members seem to be just downright angry and bitter to no end.

PTO, I will get called several dirty names for saying this, but I just wanted to let you know that I admire your independent and adventurous outlook on life. I wish you well.

 

[FWAAA]

Once again, Mr Owens chimes in, always looking for the simplistic answer, like "Why don't they just raise fares?"

Duh.

Hell, Mr Owens, even wunderkid Neeleman showed a pre-tax loss in the third quarter. B6 is probably gonna lose money again in this quarter.

AMR actually raised fares substantially last quarter, as its yield was up over 8% from 3Q2004 and its RASM was up over 12% year over year.

Despite your simplistic "they just need to raise fares $25 each" posts, the airlines HAVE BEEN raising their fares. Problem is, the bankrupt companies are desperate for cash and cut fares to fill every seat, since profits matter a lot less than cash to them.

Get rid of that overcapacity and get load factors back to 65% instead of 80% and profits will return.

But then again, Mr Owens really doesn't like profits, since they just prove he and his brothers aren't paid enough.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

I do appreciate that finman, I have a feeling this board represents more than 60% of a union members mentality. It is really tough to say though. I haven’t worked with a bunch of the AMFA AMT's that have crossed. The ones that I have worked with most came in with really sour attitudes but lightened up after a couple of weeks. I do not think some will be able to make the necessary adjustments to make it here. MSP is a different story I am hearing some really bad reports coming from there. I hope that NWA has recognized the issues there and are addressing them, that place is still in a lot of turmoil.