TA will be announced later today

[Bagbelt]

Ua still has fac and automotive, they were hiring not long ago, as we were. We hired a striking AMT. About a dozen others are working for the maintenance co. that Jb uses. Ironically they are making as much as what NW is offering to return to work. AA outsourced it's cleaners except for TUL ten years ago.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

I still trying to decide who's the better scab here. Is it the TWU kool-aid drinking AAfsc or the PTO northwest scarelines scab pencil whipper? The only reason this TA was brought to vote was because of complaints by IAM scabs like Jeff Doerr. Jeffery wanted something to vote YES for in hopes of getting his old IAM double dipping position back.

 

[aafsc]

I still trying to decide who's the better scab here. Is it the TWU kool-aid drinking AAfsc or the PTO northwest scarelines scab pencil whipper? The only reason this TA was brought to vote was because of complaints by IAM scabs like Jeff Doerr. Jeffery wanted something to vote YES for in hopes of getting his old IAM double dipping position back.

"TWU Koola-ide drinking AAfsc"? Hardly. In case you haven't noticed, most of the time I compare the IAM/EAL strike to the AMFA/NW strike. They both lost their jobs but the difference was in the LEADERSHIP. AT EAL, the IAM FORMED A COALITION with the pilots and the F/As who in turn HONORED the IAM picket line. AMFA on the other hand continuosly bashed the IAM and it's members and attempted to get NW management to substantially increase it's "ask" of the IAM (and the IAM only) in order for AMFA to give little or nothing. Then AMFA wonders why the IAM did not honor their picket line.

At EAL, the IAM leadership "thought outside the box" and attempted to have Lorenzo and his "management team" removed and vigorously sought outside investors; in which they almost succeeded twice. What has Delle and AMFA done? Nothing! Other than hire some public relations person who has produced nothing for the membership.

And Princess, you throw the term "scab" around rather loosely. A scab is someone who crosses a legal picket line in order to take the job of a striking union member or a member who crosses to keep his or her own job. I have NEVER done that! Does that term also apply to the many AMFA advocates who crossed the line at NW? Or do you think that it just applies to anyone who criticizes AMFA?

And since you love to call the IAM scabs, then why did the IAM at EAL stay out on strike FOR TWO YEARS until the airline shut down and NEVER brought back an imposed contract for a vote while the AMFA leadership AFTER ONLY FOUR MONTHS brought back an IMPOSED contract for a vote.

Maybe what Jeff Doerr was complaining about was the fact that the FIRST offer was not brought back for a vote. The first offer was far superior than the one they got now.

In the beginning, the entire membership walked. They were not able to vote on the first couple of T/As. As time went on and NW implemented their plans, the membership lost confidence in the AMFA leadership and voted with their feet. Now NW has the number of AMTs it needs and the AMFA has been busted. And these are the facts.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

And Princess, you throw the term "scab" around rather loosely. A scab is someone who crosses a legal picket line in order to take the job of a striking union member or a member who crosses to keep his or her own job. I have NEVER done that! Does that term also apply to the many AMFA advocates who crossed the line at NW? Or do you think that it just applies to anyone who criticizes AMFA?

Very nice post aafsc but I find this part particularly interesting. I do not consider the returning AMFA Boys Scabs and neither do they. The union die hards here are also having a hard time calling them scabs. Also at the AMFA Rally they were not called Scabs but "members that crossed over." I really do find this to be very interesting. The IAM guys that do the pushbacks are scabs but they also do not think of themselves as scabs and only the IAM haters here think of them as scabs. Are we going to have to change the definition of Scab so the unions and its members can feel better about themselves, like the A&P Mechanic became an AMT so people could feel better about their jobs?

 

[Hackman]

You could come up with a few hundred if you like, that still is going to round to 0% of the total population that you demonize. I'm just trying to put some of this into perspective. You can't apply the actions of a tiny percent of the population to the whole and continue to have any credibility in what you're saying.

Do you know any poeple that have a position of influence in a corporation? I'm sure it's much easier to demonize a group of people if you've never actually met them. Just because you don't hear news reports about all of the companies that follow the rules and deal with their employees and customers in an honerable way, doesn't mean they don't exist.

FYI, your points would be much more credible if you'd balance your anger with reason on some points. Applying evil intent on a population as a whole that you disagree with is intellectually lazy. Maybe run through the progression of "what would I do if I were running NWA and needed to turn it profitable?" (Don't say raise fares either, because as we've discussed, that won't help)

Jeez finman, your a NWA management bootlicker and your questioning my credibility? Hmm, I suspect you should look in the mirror, and then at your company's reputation, which is in the toilet next to you.

My hatred? No, its more like my disgust. Why do I have to personally know NWA management POS like Dougie Stealin', Andy "Robbers", Neil "The Butcher" Cohen, or Julie "Golden" Showers to "demonize" them? They sealed their own fate with their collective "demonic" actions against the workers who helped build NWA, and didn't Cohen just get done running US Air into the ground? Did the recent execution of murderer and Crips co-founder Stanley "Tookie" Williams mandate that I had to personally know him to state he was a thug POS gang-banger who deserved to die? I think not. Facts are facts, and that is reason enough for me. Did I state that any and all corporate management is dishonorable and reviled? Of course I didn't, and I resent you implying that I did.

I, along with many others, have a difference of opinion than you corporate criminal types who continue to enrich themselves off corporate failure after corporate failure. If your friends are of this ilk finny, I suggest you be very, very careful to never turn your back around them. That cold steel hanging out your back can leave a mark...

I surmise the USA Today article below will be "minescule", "tiny", or "leftist babble" in your myopic opinion, but again your jack-booted management two-step dance falls somewhere in between obtuse and servility. I would wager you put on a hell-o-va-show for the man at the NWA bootlicker board meetings. "I said dance boy...." http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/ma...-pay-usat_x.htm
"At 60 of the worst-performing companies in that group, which lost $769 billion in market value over the past five years, the aggregate pay for the top five executives of those 60 companies over the same period was $12 billion.

In other words, since January of 2000, some 300 executives who were responsible for more than three-quarters of a trillion dollars in shareholder value vanishing were rewarded by their shareholders with salary, bonuses and stock options worth $12 billion.

That averages out to $40 million for each of those companies' top five executives over the five-year period, or $8 million per executive per year.

"The system's broken," says Mark Van Clieaf, who compiled the data used in the pension funds' letter. Van Clieaf did not provide the letter to USA TODAY, but when asked about its contents, he confirmed the findings of his research."



Hopefully, SEC Chairman Christopher Cox will not see this corporate raping and pillaging as just a small problem as you do finny. In January, why don't you show Mr. Cox some "finny fuzzy math" and how he can round the 300 executives 3/4 of trillion in lo$$e$ to a nice and tidy 0%. I'm sure Mr. Cox would love your dance also.

 

[finman]

1) Jeez finman, your a NWA management bootlicker and your questioning my credibility?

2) Did the recent execution of murderer and Crips co-founder Stanley "Tookie" Williams mandate that I had to personally know him to state he was a thug POS gang-banger who deserved to die? I think not.

3) I, along with many others, have a difference of opinion than you corporate criminal types ...

1) I'm not even sure what "bootlicker" means. I hear it used a lot on this board. It must be a union thing. I guess I just try work hard and do what I can to help NWA prosper because it will help me make more money. I'm not sure if that's bootlicking, because it is completely self-serving.

2) I agree with that point. You don't have to have a cup of tea with someone to identify them as evil when that fact has already been fully established by their actions. I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree on the demonic nature of corporate leaders.

3) You said ealy in the post that you obviously don't think all corporate types are evil, and that you were offended I would imply that. In the next breath you imply that I am a criminal ("you corporate criminal types"?). Not sure if you meant that or not, but it just seemed a little inconsistent.

I think you make some good points, and you seem like a very well read individual. We obviously view things from a different angle, and no amount of back and forth is really going to change that. Have a good weekend.

 

[Hackman]

1) I'm not even sure what "bootlicker" means. I hear it used a lot on this board. It must be a union thing. I guess I just try work hard and do what I can to help NWA prosper because it will help me make more money. I'm not sure if that's bootlicking, because it is completely self-serving.

2) I agree with that point. You don't have to have a cup of tea with someone to identify them as evil when that fact has already been fully established by their actions. I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree on the demonic nature of corporate leaders.

3) You said ealy in the post that you obviously don't think all corporate types are evil, and that you were offended I would imply that. In the next breath you imply that I am a criminal ("you corporate criminal types"?). Not sure if you meant that or not, but it just seemed a little inconsistent.

I think you make some good points, and you seem like a very well read individual. We obviously view things from a different angle, and no amount of back and forth is really going to change that. Have a good weekend.

What I mean by bootlicker is servitude, sucking-up, telling the man what he wants to hear, not standing up for what you believe, and generally being a non-descript "yesman". This term applies to all walks of low lifes, union or not. You defend corporate criminals and out of control greed to no end, so I can only assume you aspire to become as I described . Am I wrong? Maybe, but I really doubt it. Consistent enough?

Like the USA Today article states, "Pay for Performance", which sums it up nicely. Workers are expected to perform, why not the upper management? Why is it acceptable for a bankrupt carrier to continuously ream its beleagered employees, yet Dougie Stealin' and friends walk away with millions even if Chapter 7 comes? This, along with lifetime perks, regardless of the mistakes made? Something is very wrong in my opinion...and also many others.

I'll tell you one corporate leader I do respect, is Lee Iacoca. He led by example at Chrysler, didn't take a dime of pay when he asked the workers to give back and save the company from the crusher. Looks like the company is doing quite well, and since Germany's Daimler invested, the company has some really cool products. Mr. Iacoca once stated; "The speed of the boss is the speed of the team". What happens when boss goes backward? The team fails to go forward, or NWA's case, down.

I will not give you an inch finman. I think you know what's right and wrong. Right now, your airline is very wrong. You have good weekend also.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

aafsc, I called you a scab because you have done nothing but criticize the AMFA and the NWA Strike since it started. Unions have thrown stabs at each other thru out labor history, and or but they used to always come to each others aid during a strike despite their differences. The IAM(your former union) at Northwest is assisting the destruction of the labor movement all in the name of revenge. Your TWU has been assisting the destruction of organized labor since 1983 with concessionary contract after concessionary contract. In 1981, the during the PATCO strike your AFL-CIO failed to act when action was called for and unions have been on the run ever since. Except one,AMFA. AMFA has been the only airline union that finally said NO MORE givebacks. This NWA strike should have been a rallying cry for the other unions in the airline industy to grow a spine and fight back too. Now it is only a matter of time before the final slaughter of the labor movement in the airline industry is completed.

One thing aafsc, if the IAM was so great at Eastern why did most of the ex-EAL mechanics here at AA gladly sign their AMFA cards when they were asked to sign?

 

[aafsc]

aafsc, I called you a scab because you have done nothing but criticize the AMFA and the NWA Strike since it started. Unions have thrown stabs at each other thru out labor history, and or but they used to always come to each others aid during a strike despite their differences. The IAM(your former union) at Northwest is assisting the destruction of the labor movement all in the name of revenge. Your TWU has been assisting the destruction of organized labor since 1983 with concessionary contract after concessionary contract. In 1981, the during the PATCO strike your AFL-CIO failed to act when action was called for and unions have been on the run ever since. Except one,AMFA. AMFA has been the only airline union that finally said NO MORE givebacks. This NWA strike should have been a rallying cry for the other unions in the airline industy to grow a spine and fight back too. Now it is only a matter of time before the final slaughter of the labor movement in the airline industry is completed.

One thing aafsc, if the IAM was so great at Eastern why did most of the ex-EAL mechanics here at AA gladly sign their AMFA cards when they were asked to sign?

Yes Princess, I have criticized AMFA for the way they have conducted the strike but that does not make me a scab because I have never crossed a picket line. I posted the correct definition of what a scab is. My criticisms of AMFA are 1. their inability to form a coalition and 2.inability to think creatively. Lets look at their inability to form a coalition with the other groups (unlike the IAM at EAL). You are not going to get support when you insist that management take significantly more from another group. AMFA told NW management to take significantly more from the IAM . Also, according to a post by a NW pilot on another board, AMFA was approached earlier on joining the other unions concerning NW's problems. According to this pilot, AMFA refused. Just like they refused to enter a coalition with regards to the retiree health issue at UAL. AMFA negotiated with UAL alone on this issue. Seems as though AMFA has shunned a few opportunities to join a coalition.
As far as their thinking creatively, again they have done nothing as to where the IAM at EAL was proactive in terms of attempting to find outside investors. This gave the IAM EAL members a reason to hope, stay out, and not scab; unlike at NW where AMFA has done nothing and the picket lines have crumbled and strikers crossed because of despair.

Regarding Patco, you are right; the AFL-CIO failed. But you are incorrect about AMFA being "the only airline union that said no more givebacks." That honor goes to the IAM at EAL who struck in 1989.

NWA has a history of poor labor relations and it is said that it has had more strikes that any other airline; and I believe that the IAM was responsible for a couple of them. Tell me Princess, how was it that the IAM was able to strike NW in the past and not get totally pulverized like AMFA has?

As far as the ex-EAL mechanics at AA that signed an AMFA card, good for them. But would they sign one now that AMFA at NW has basically surrendered after only four months on strike when they, as IAM members, stayed out at EAL for two years and NEVER surrendered?

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

aafsc,When you quit acting like a scab and start acting like a unionist, I will quit calling you a scab,until then you are in the same category as PTO. You talk of the IAM strikes at NWA. Isn't this the same IAM that allowed the overseas outsourcing of aircraft maintenance at NWA? The IAM and the TWU have betrayed their AMT members time and time again. NWA AMT's got fed up with the IAM's B.S. and dumped them in 1998. Of course,to cowards like you that was a bad thing to do since the IAM is now scabbing AMFA work at NWA.

What good is a union coalition when the coalition fails act on their threats of striking these corporate criminals? You critizise AMFA at UAL. AMFA was handed the helm of the IAM-UAL Titanic after it had hit the iceberg and you have the gall to say AMFA is a failure at UAL? When is your TWU gonna stand up to AMR instead of giving away the farm?

As far as the IAM being proactive attracting investors, The IAM welcomed Carl Icahn to TWA with open arms and I have even read they even welcomed Frank Lorenzo when he first appeared. Don't even get me started on the IAM ESOP at UAL!

 

[aafsc]

aafsc,When you quit acting like a scab and start acting like a unionist, I will quit calling you a scab,until then you are in the same category as PTO. You talk of the IAM strikes at NWA. Isn't this the same IAM that allowed the overseas outsourcing of aircraft maintenance at NWA? The IAM and the TWU have betrayed their AMT members time and time again. NWA AMT's got fed up with the IAM's B.S. and dumped them in 1998. Of course,to cowards like you that was a bad thing to do since the IAM is now scabbing AMFA work at NWA.

What good is a union coalition when the coalition fails act on their threats of striking these corporate criminals? You critizise AMFA at UAL. AMFA was handed the helm of the IAM-UAL Titanic after it had hit the iceberg and you have the gall to say AMFA is a failure at UAL? When is your TWU gonna stand up to AMR instead of giving away the farm?

As far as the IAM being proactive attracting investors, The IAM welcomed Carl Icahn to TWA with open arms and I have even read they even welcomed Frank Lorenzo when he first appeared. Don't even get me started on the IAM ESOP at UAL!

When you call me a scab because I dare to criticize AMFA,you sound just like George Bush and the extreme right wing republicans when they say that if someone doesn't totally agree with them then that person is unpatriotic and unamerican. Again, you are showing your ignorance when you say I am in the same category as PTO as I have never crossed a picket line but have in fact walked one.

If the IAM let NW contract out work overseas, then why did NW keep all 10,000 AMTs on the payroll instead of laying them off when the IAM represented them? And why was there overtime during this period?
The remaining unions at NW could very well strike the carrier in the future. We will just have to wait and see what transpires there over time. And yes, I have the gall to criticize AMFA at UA because all they would have to have done is strike when there hourly rate was cut to well below AA's, when there pensions were trashed while AA still has theirs, and when they were made to pay a few hundred dollars a month in retirement medical while our plan remains unchanged. They could have struck if their contract was tossed out instead of bring back a huge concessionary contract. What happened before AMFA got on the property is irrelevent. The undisputed FACT is that AMFA brought back a concessionary contract; something they said they would never do during the representation drives.

As far as TWA, Ichan, and Lorenzo goes, to the unions at TWA (not just the IAM) Ichan was the lesser of two evils. I think that Icahn was relatively unknown back then as to where Lorenzo was well known after what he did at CO.

And the IAM, I beleive, was not the catalyst for the ESOP at UA, it was ALPA. The AFA was the only group not to participate.

In conclusion, the evidence is crystal clear that the AMFA has lost big at NW. They were totally outmaneuvered by NW management. NW had a plan to totally bust AMFA.What would you be saying if the situation was the same but the IAM was still in charge there?

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

How did AMFA lose big at NWA? AMFA didn't lose anything at NWA. They fought one of the most evil,corrupt,poorly managed companies in the USA. The AMT's there will move on just like the EAL mechanics did. They have skills and abilities that will transfer into other things. Old School AMT's usually are on the smarter end of the intelligence stick,so they will survive.Many of the striking AMT's at Northwest have told me that when they went out they knew they probably would not come back. AMFA did what the TWu,IAM,AFA,ALPA or even the IBT wouldn't do and that is try to put a stop to the airline chopping block that has been in operation since 9-11.

You say I attack anyone who criticizes AMFA. B.S. because even I have criticized AMFA. I only criticize those who obiviously don't have a clue about why unions in this country are being wiped out. As far as the AMFA strike at NWA is concerned,I do have one criticizm. When it was discovered that NWA was training scabs in Arizona, AMFA should have walked out then and there in defiance of the RLA. Until the airline unions and union members in this country are willing to break these Pro-management laws in civil disobedience, labor in the airline industry will be on the run. As far as if the IAM had walked out instead of AMFA, I would have put aside my differences and started walking the IAM picketline. I wouldn't care if it was the TWU,IBT,AFA,ALPA, that had walked out. I would support them all, because they took a stand and decided to fight! AMFA would have walked out in a sympathy strike with IAM despite their past differences. That's what unions are supposed to do and not scab the striking unions work!

 

[aafsc]

AMFA lost big because many of their members have agreed to cross and work for what the company imposed. This was not the case at EAL/IAM. The PTO type temporary scabs are no longer needed because enough NWA origional and newhires have crossed and NW has the number they need. There is also those who put their name on the "return to work" list. All this occured in only 4 months. At EAL during the strike, yes we had a few IAM scabs cross with newhire scabs but over the two years EALs fleet went from 300 planes to 150. Some were transferred to CO but many were CANNIBALIZED for engines and spare parts because the majority of the IAM mechanics stayed out. The amount of time a striker stays on the picket line is directly linked to his or her confidence in the union leadership.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The situation at NWA as far as the AMTs are concerned, will never be repeated.

1) There were thousands of AMTs on layoff from NWA and the other major carriers who were still fresh to the street, and willing to take "almost" anything to make some money.

2) NWA knew they were going to file Chap 11 so spending the outrageous amounts ($100 million +) to set up for this strike was a no-brainer, since they could renege on their bills ie; hotel cost for the replacements.


As we speak, the number of idle AMTs on the street dwindles.As the economy continues to recover the attrition rates for mechanics at the major carriers will increase.( UAL is currently recalling AMTs and PM mechanics) Add to this, that with the closure of many A&P schools/suspension of A&P programs at many colleges,the AMT shortage which raised wages in 2000&2001 will continue 10 fold. The negative PR not just for aircraft maintenance but the industry as a whole, will have those next generation technical minds taking their skills to other industries where they will be better compensated for their skills, and given a greater sense of worth into the future. Then of course add to all of this the change in Bankruptcy laws that will make playing this sort of game very unappealing.

So praise NWA for their bravado, or curse them for their stupidity, either way you wont be seeing this sort of confrontation in airline maintenance again anytime soon.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

aafsc,When you quit acting like a scab and start acting like a unionist, I will quit calling you a scab,until then you are in the same category as PTO.

My dearest Princess why are you badgering aafsc? All though aafsc might think along the same lines as me we are by no means in the same category. aafsc is not a scab on the other hand I am. aafsc is simply stating what I have been saying since this started. The difference is aafsc wants unions to succeed but knows if they do not change their attitudes, tactics and strategy they are doomed to fail. aafsc is on the unionists side as where I am not. aafsc makes valid points that most of you guys refuse to even recognize, for if you did your worlds would be turned upside down. I suggest you guys listen to what aafsc has to say and not be so quick to ridicule. aafsc is apparently capable of thinking outside of the box where you guys are not. Companies are changing the way they do business and if you are not capable of making the necessary changes....just ask aafsc what is going to happen.