The Irony Of Those That Fed Off Pan Am.

[North by Northwest]

Where was the assistance for Pan Am after flt. 103? As the offspring of two generations of Pan Amers I am bewildered at the distress calls and expected assistance from airlines and their employees, that benefitted from the demise of agruably the greatest airline in American ( or the world for that matter) Aviation history. The most profitable divisions of the three airlines that are facing financial demise all came from Pan Am. The U shuttle (Pan Am), United's Pacific Div, LHR Hub, So.American routes ( Pan Am), Delta's enitre European Div. (Pan Am). I watched the glee and numbing elation of the companies AND their employees at the prospect of "fantastic international flying" and enormous fat paychecks forthcoming from the aquasition of Pan Am' riches. While we (Pan Am families) watched in horror the destruction of lives falling apart. The carving up (alive) of the company that took generations to build. Karma is truely a boomarag. So...what's happening now is of no big deal to alot of people in this industry...many of us have already faced the barbarians at the gate, and they plundered and left with pockets full, and a confident future, mindless and uncaring of the ruined lives left behind. Pension issues, personal bankruptcies, foreclosures...the road has already been paved for those to come. Fate has a way of coming full circle in the most unpredictable way. This is not an attack on those at these airlines...just a reminder of what took place prior to their current position.

 

[flyhigh]

...I believe U's shuttle is the former Eastern Shuttle, by way of Trump (The Donald) Shuttle. Delta has the PanAm Shuttle

 

[mga707]

...I believe U's shuttle is the former Eastern Shuttle, by way of Trump (The Donald) Shuttle. Delta has the PanAm Shuttle

[post="204521"][/post]​

Correct. And it had only been the PA Shuttle for a relatively short time. Frank Lorenzo had been required to relinquish one of the two shuttle operations (Eastern and New York Air) in the mid-80s as a condition of Texas Air Corp's takeover of Eastern Air Lines. PA took over NY Air's shuttle, which Lorenzo had set up in 1981 to compete with EAL's long-established Air-Shuttle.

 

[boeing787]

More garbage from the redtails. The bluetails will win in the Pacific. Things will turn around. Were just better than you period.

 

[Globetrotter11]

<<<Where was the assistance for Pan Am >>>
North by Northwest
===========================================

In the interest of accuracy I feel that it bears mentioning that United took on about 600 pilots and a commensurate number of F/As when they took over the Pacific division on PacDay in 1986. The pilots came in with date of hire seniority.

Since then UA has hired more "displaced" pilots than anyone else, including 4-600 from Eastern and many others. And no, United did not "feed off" the sad demise of that airline. As opposed to Atlanta and Dallas based airlines that offered very few employment opportunities.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that you are using an overly broad brush with your statements.

Wishing you the best of luck,

Globetrotter11

 

[Bigsky]

deleted by bigsky

 

[WorldTraveler]

What does this ranting diatribe have to do with Northwest? Or is it that no one is interested in talking about NW so instead NW's finest have to bash other airlines and their employees?

Globetrotter,
You obviously are woefully ignorant of industry history. Delta offered employment to over 6,000 Pan Am employees and invested hundreds of millions of dollars in an attempt to reorganize Pan Am as a Latin America focused airline. When Pan Am went through DL's investment in a mere 35 days, DL decided there would be no more investment and no one else came forward either. Read the history books before you make patently inaccurate statements.

Let's remember that the reason NW hasn't participated in any acquisitions since Republic is because they have spent a decade recovering from their financially devastating leveraged buyout.

TO position NW as somehow better than the rest of the industry because it wasn't a part of Pan Am's demise is despicable. Why don't you ask the employees of the companies NW acquired how they feel about NW.

N by NW,
open your local phone book to the mental health section. There is help available for people like you that live with anger. We as the American taxpayers are even willing to pick up the tab if it will help you turn your life around.

 

[Globetrotter11]

<<Globetrotter,
You obviously are woefully ignorant of industry history. Delta offered employment to over 6,000 Pan Am employees and invested hundreds of millions of dollars in an attempt to reorganize Pan Am as a Latin America focused airline. When Pan Am went through DL's investment in a mere 35 days, DL decided there would be no more investment and no one else came forward either. Read the history books before you make patently inaccurate statements. >>>

WorldTraveler,

I decided to take your advice and spent a few minutes on Google researching Delta's role in the demise of Pan Am. Following are a few quotes:

""But the day Pan Am was to have presented its comeback plan to the bankruptcy court, Delta abruptly pulled out, saying the once-proud carrier was too far gone to save, and refusing to provide the last $25 million of a promised $140 million in financing to keep Pan Am in the air. The next day, December 4, 1991, Pan Am stopped flying. ""

" Delta put a cash infusion into Pan Am and when it pulled out of the venture, accusations flews that DL reneged and put PA out of business."

"Transportation Secretary Samuel Skinner sharply criticized Delta's abrupt withdrawal of a financing package that had been intended to bring Pan Am out of bankruptcy court.

The move killed Pan Am, although Delta already has gotten the Pan Am Shuttle, which serves New York, Boston and Washington, as well as most of Pan Am's old service across the Atlantic and beyond.

Pan Am's sole remaining trans-Atlantic route was from Miami, Fla., to Paris.

Pan Am, the once-proud pioneer of commercial aviation that built itself into the unofficial U.S. flagship carrier,

had spent the last decade struggling to erase massive losses as leaner competitors were able to better take advantage

of the industry's deregulation in 1978.

Pan Am had hoped to persuade its bankruptcy judge on Tuesday to approve a reorganization plan that would have let it

move from New York to Miami, operating as a smaller carrier that would have been owned 45 percent by Delta and 55 percent by Pan Am creditors.

After Delta pulled out, Pan Am was dead in less than a day, the third casualty of a disastrous year that has also seen the demise of Eastern Airlines and Midway Airlines. "

I am not trying to beat up on Delta here. History (and my memory) does seem to indicate that after Delta bought many desireable parts of Pan Am, they ensured the end by pulling out of their joint venture on the eve of the reorganization.

In the interest of fairness, most airlines have examples in their history that show them in a less than favorable light.

Wishing you (and Delta) the best of luck,

Globetrotter11

PS. The intent of the original post was to shed a little light on North by Northwest's statement that no one were offering employment or assistance to the Pan Am employees.

 

[Kev3188]

Let's remember that the reason NW hasn't participated in any acquisitions since Republic is because they have spent a decade recovering from their financially devastating leveraged buyout.

[post="204741"][/post]​

...And are still suffering from the lingering animosity between the RC/NW work groups.

 

[WorldTraveler]

And, with all due respect to Google, you simply have not presented the complete picture. Check out Delta's 1991 annual report and you will see the hundreds of millions that Delta poured into reorganzing Pan Am. How long do you expect Delta should have continued to pour money into a company that burned through cash at the rate of over $3 million a day - an amount that is frightening even in light of today's megacarriers.

I agree that it is easy to find dirt in any company's history but I think you honestly have to view history with a very jaundiced eye if you believe that Pan Am was taken advantage of. Pan Am's missteps are well documented and go back many decades. Neither United or Delta can be slighted or faulted for taking advantage of the opportunity to acquire Pan Am's assets - and with it employed many, many of their employees.

The real irony of the situation is that the biggest part of those assets are held by United which is itself fighting for life. And the assets which are held by United but originated with Pan Am are still one of the most coveted sets of assets in the industry. Ironically, DL's former PA assets are worthy much less than the UA set yet DL is the one that has managed to execute a financial recovery - something that is still elusive for UA.

Specific to NW, all of this discussion says that NW obtained extraordinarily Japan rights which still propel that company. No other set of traffic rights have fueled a company for as long and to the degree those rights have fueled NW's revenues.

 

[North by Northwest]

"What does this ranting diatribe have to do with Northwest? Or is it that no one is interested in talking about NW so instead NW's finest have to bash other airlines and their employees?" You are here posting arent you? You are just a wanna be that wants sooo badly to be involved. I get such GLEE from reading your crybaby whinning. I am glad that you find my post such drab that you are compelled to comment. Keep it up, WimpyTraveler, we are rolling on the floor laughing! We have lots to talk about at NWA...just that nosy wannabes aren't privy to it.

 

[aafsc]

<<<Where was the assistance for Pan Am >>>
North by Northwest
===========================================

In the interest of accuracy I feel that it bears mentioning that United took on about 600 pilots and a commensurate number of F/As when they took over the Pacific division on PacDay in 1986. The pilots came in with date of hire seniority.

Since then UA has hired more "displaced" pilots than anyone else, including 4-600 from Eastern and many others. And no, United did not "feed off" the sad demise of that airline. As opposed to Atlanta and Dallas based airlines that offered very few employment opportunities.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that you are using an overly broad brush with your statements.

Wishing you the best of luck,

Globetrotter11

[post="204693"][/post]​

FYI, there are many ex-Eastern, ex-PanAM, and ex-Braniff people at AA.

 

[NWA/AMT]

What does this ranting diatribe have to do with Northwest? Or is it that no one is interested in talking about NW so instead NW's finest have to bash other airlines and their employees?

[post="204741"][/post]​

No, we just wait for the many fine folks from other airlines to stop by and escalate these arguments, apparently not recognizing 'flamebait' for what it is. Then we watch it degenerate into either the latest installment of the perennial "My airline rules - your airline sucks" slapfight or the perpetual "Airbus vs. Boeing" battle.

Then we laugh.

It keeps us warm.

 

[JetClipper]

More garbage from the redtails. The bluetails will win in the Pacific. Things will turn around. Were just better than you period.

And when, pray tell, do you expect this to happen; when United gets the ATSB loan? Oh yeah, got turned-down the third and final time earlier this year. When UAL gets out of bankruptcy? Doesn't appear that this will happen any time soon, since United's only business plan apparently is to stay in Chapter 11 as long as possible.

 

[Fly]

N by NW,
open your local phone book to the mental health section. There is help available for people like you that live with anger. We as the American taxpayers are even willing to pick up the tab if it will help you turn your life around.

[post="204741"][/post]​

You have a lot of nerve! Maybe you should open that book and look up help for people who are obsessed with airlines they don't even work at! :down: