TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[MetalMover]

Why don't you include the guy who fixes the corporate jet for Warren Buffet as well? You know why the company is not including those 3 companies you mentioned. You just want to continue to ignore the answer.

Ok, I will include the corporate jet mechanic if they include UPS and FEDEX in the wage comparison! Deal?
 
And what answer do I continue to ignore?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Oh I'm sorry I keep forgetting that you only consider Title 1 to be mechanics. The other title groups that are represented are irrelevant. And from now on I'll get my data from you guys here or Bob rather than MIT. What does MIT know anyway right?

And no need to get all testy with the Air Serve crack. That's just being rude.

 
WeAAsles
 
You should be sorry, and the reason I say that is most guys Don't look at the title 2 guys when they are talking about mechanics. They are just looking at their peers.
But as an AMFA organizer I have to look at them since they are part of the class and craft that I want a better union for.
 
I have asked these guys for the 16 yrs I have been at this here at AA and they just want to listen to all the rhedoric that the TWU and others like your self and the IBT/IAM spew. You don't tell them that the reason they got bumped was they were on one seniority list. You don't tell them that we have two title groups here at AA and it works different, due to two lists. That unless you have time in that title group you can't bump into it.
You tell them that AMFA does not want them but you don't tell them that the SWA facilities/auto guys make $4.00 more an hr than I do even with my A&P Lic pay.
 
I know your comment was meant to be a smart a$$ comment, But you don't consider that you are trashing the points we are trying to get across to our class and craft workers, and if it hurts our drive then so be it. Thats ok that we feel slighted by the TWU as long you protect the TWU. At OUR Class and craft expense.
 
You call yourself a true Union GUY?
 
Just your UNION, mine does not count is that right??????????

 

[MetalMover]

 
Sure, they may be smarter than any of us. The problem is that although you keep saying "large numbers of mechanics," it seems the number that want to stay away from AMFA is bigger because after 53 years....We're still TWU.

You do remember that the last AMFA vote, the TWU got dead and retired people voting rights, don't you?
Just remember, the TULSA majority has come to an end. 

 

[MetalMover]

 
Sure. Everyone brings up the lost Members at the "industrial unions," therefore it must be relevant that the same could be said for AMFA. They're representing 10% of the Members they used to represent. It's just a fact.

Exactly, but next time make sure you mention the fact that the IAM once dominated the airline industry. How many people does the IAM represent at the airlines compared to their heyday?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

You do remember that the last AMFA vote, the TWU got dead and retired people voting rights, don't you?
Just remember, the TULSA majority has come to an end. 

 
Metalmover 
 
we missed by less than 50 cards but that was because AA inflated the numbers and we the organizers could not disprove all the guys on the AA list. The list went from roughly 24K down to 18k. Thats a lot of names not part of our class and craft AA added to stop the drive.
 
Well we have maintained the list in a DB which one of our organizers has maintained since then and now due to the FOIA has both US/AA lists from the NMB.both companies had to provide these lists to insure the card count would be correct.
 
We have failed to come close other times just due to lack of interest. But if we fail this time and don't get a combined 50% +1 then its over. We had enough cards last yr but the IBT and AA outsmarted us. brilliant move on their part. But both parties have deep pockets. The TWU brought in the IBT and the IBT backed out when fraudulent signed cards were brought up. But that cost us another yr. Now the Assoc. is attempting to do it again. Derail the AMFA drive, we just have to wait and see what the nMB is going to rule.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
WeAAsles
 
Still don't get the reason that you are sooooo wrapped up in what the mechanics are wanting to do and what AMFA and SWA is Doing.  Just what are you doing to protect the status of your own class and craft. Why aren't you telling the IAM rampers about the TWU and the pension and every other thing we have discussed here on this forum in sooo many different threads?

I've told you before that I have friends in other Title groups who appreciate what I'm doing here. They read but honestly aren't as good at articulating their thoughts as I can and are honestly a little afraid because a lot of your guys all they know how to do is whack people who disagree with them. When my friends ask me to stop I'll stop. But they haven't asked me too yet.

As far as the pension what's there to talk about? You think one thing is going to happen and I think it's not. Why dredge up possibilities until they happen?
 
 
You figures are off by just a little since I assume they are calculating in the Title 2 mechanics and shop people, parts washers and misc.

They're not MY calculations, they're MIT's. And of course those groups are being included I'm sure. They are still a part of your class and craft for now aren't they?
 
You, 700UW, NYer, hell of a line up there, seem to care more about us than most mechanics. Could it be that you are worried that if we left the TWU, AA will spin you guys off since the TWU will have even less teeth than they do now?

No. I've said it before that if you left I really honestly believe we could ask for and get more money and jobs. You guys would either lose or give up so much that it would be a windfall for my group. I'm sorry to say to you that I honestly and sincerely believe that. Honestly. Totally honestly.
 
Are you so afraid that if we went AMFA that AA will not even deal with the TWU and contract all of Fleet? If Not then WHY are you and the others so ate up with what the mechanics want?

No. See above. My maintenance friends under your umbrella group DO NOT want the same thing as you.
 
Don't you have enough to worry about in your own class and craft?

Of course. There are always issues to contend with. 
 
Just how many of your co-workers are now part time? The TWU shed the aircraft cleaners, gave (lost) that to Eulin. AA has given (lost) other jobs that fleet used to do to them as well. Are you so worried about the mechanics that you and these others, 700UW and NYer feel the need to google AMFA and tell us all the BAD crap you find. Because you are soooo scared the TWU which you all seem to LOVE will crap on you if we are not part of the TWU?
 
Please explain?

I hope again that I was clear enough up above?
 
You guys call us elitist, well what should we call the group of you guys who care more about us then their own work group?

I concentrate FAR more on my own workgroup then you can even begin to imagine.
 
You guys must think we are sooo special that we need all this attention.
 
When we talk you guys can't wait to interject yourselves into what ever is going on.

Why do you need such a personal lovefest with each other? Blow away the facts and you'll have your cards and your new union. Simple as that.
 
We are LQQKING to bring the US guys with us yet you want to tell us we are wrong for wanting to build a strong union, that is just for those mechanics and others determined by the NMB to be in our class and craft. We want our choice yet you are determined to tell us that we are wrong and we don't want to do that. It's a bad choice, you need to stay with us.

You guys do a great job at saying what myself and others are saying. I haven't said once that you NEED to stay with us. If you get the cards and your votes I wish you well. Get er done.
 
SO explain PLEASE why you NEED US to be apart of the TWU. Don't bad mouth AMFA tell us just HOW GOOD the TWU has done for your class and craft?

The average baggage handler in the US makes $11.00 per hour with no benefits. I make $23.30 WITH benefits. My Union ROCKS to me.
 
We are telling one another what we think the TWU has done to our class and craft.
If you were a part of that then I would welcome your opinion. Since it effect you but it doesn't unless you guys actually need us to save yourselves?  Is this true?

No but I do look out for my friends when they ask and encourage me to do so. Not everyone wants your group bro.

 

[NYer]

 
 
You, 700UW, NYer, hell of a line up there, seem to care more about us than most mechanics. Could it be that you are worried that if we left the TWU, AA will spin you guys off since the TWU will have even less teeth than they do now? --Just so that I'm clear. In the past, arguments were made that other title groups don't understand and shouldn't care about AMT's because those title groups are at the top of the wage scale, while AMT's are at the bottom. Then you're also trying to say that those same title groups are somehow afraid they will lose some kind of advantage received by AMT's (which they can't use to help themselves, but somehow it rubs off on the other title groups)....And THAT'S why their afraid AMT's will go....
 
Are you so afraid that if we went AMFA that AA will not even deal with the TWU and contract all of Fleet? If Not then WHY are you and the others so ate up with what the mechanics want? --This is about sharing ideas regardless of any title groups. If everyone that opposes AMFA, and they were wrong it would be SOOOOO easy to just refute the information. That's not happening and instead the messengers are the focus of the rebuttals....not the information. Show everyone how strong of a choice it is to go AMFA...otherwise what becomes painfully clear is the weakness of the message to make a move.
 
Just how many of your co-workers are now part time? The TWU shed the aircraft cleaners, gave that to Eulin. AA has given other jobs that fleet used to do to them as well. Are you so worried about the mechanics that you and these others, 700UW and NYer feel the need to google AMFA and tell us all the BAD crap you find. Because you are soooo scared the TWU which you all seem to LOVE will crap on you if we are not part of the TWU? --You know how to defeat bad crap? With good crap...
 
Please explain?
 
You guys call us elitist, well what should we call the group of you guys who care more about us then their own work group? --Brothers
 
You guys must think we are sooo special that we need all this attention. --You got a point there.
 
When we talk you guys can't wait to interject yourselves into what ever is going on.
 
We are LQQKING to bring the US guys with us yet you want to tell us we are wrong for wanting to build a strong union, that is just for those mechanics and others determined by the NMB to be in our class and craft. We want our choice yet you are determined to tell us that we are wrong and we don't want to do that. It's a bad choice, you need to stay with us. --You get your choice, regardless of what anyone thinks, each one of you gets a choice. The only issue seems to be that not enough have made the same choice as witnessed by the lack of cards signed to trigger a vote. Keep trying, if that's what you truly want.....get those cards signed.
 
SO explain PLEASE why you NEED US to be apart of the TWU. Don't bad mouth AMFA tell us just HOW GOOD the TWU has done for your class and craft? OK, so then I guess it would be fair if you could not bad mouth the TWU and tell us how good AMFA has been.
 
We are telling one another what we think the TWU has done to our class and craft.
If you were a part of that then I would welcome your opinion. Since it effect you but it doesn't unless you guys actually need us to save yourselves?  Is this true? -No

 

[MetalMover]

 
Metalmover 
 
we missed by less than 50 cards but that was because AA inflated the numbers and we the organizers could not disprove all the guys on the AA list. The list went from roughly 24K down to 18k. Thats a lot of names not part of our class and craft AA added to stop the drive.
 
Well we have maintained the list in a DB which one of our organizers has maintained since then and now due to the FOIA has both US/AA lists from the NMB.both companies had to provide these lists to insure the card count would be correct.
 
We have failed to come close other times just due to lack of interest. But if we fail this time and don't get a combined 50% +1 then its over. We had enough cards last yr but the IBT and AA outsmarted us. brilliant move on their part. But both parties have deep pockets. The TWU brought in the IBT and the IBT backed out when fraudulent signed cards were brought up. But that cost us another yr. Now the Assoc. is attempting to do it again. Derail the AMFA drive, we just have to wait and see what the nMB is going to rule.

sure the IBT playbook.

 

[NYer]

You do remember that the last AMFA vote, the TWU got dead and retired people voting rights, don't you?
Just remember, the TULSA majority has come to an end. 

 
Then that's great news for you guys. It should mean that you can get the cards necessary to put yourselves on this next ballot....Good luck, if AMFA is the answer the mechanics at AA will sign those cards and make the move....Go for it.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Exactly, but next time make sure you mention the fact that the IAM once dominated the airline industry. How many people does the IAM represent at the airlines compared to their heyday?

 
 
The IAM LOST all of these carriers members at one time or another.
 
1. Eastern
2. TWA
3. United
4. Continental
5. Us Airway/Piedmont
6. North West
 
TWU represents who? AA
 
Bottom of the barrel in pay as far as maintenance is concerned.

 

[WeAAsles]

Ok, I will include the corporate jet mechanic if they include UPS and FEDEX in the wage comparison! Deal?
 
And what answer do I continue to ignore?

Oy vey. UPS and FEDEX are package delivery companies and make ALOT more than AA. As a matter of fact I asked my delivery guy the other day how much was his top out? $34.00 per hour.

I guess we just picked the wrong company to work for huh?

 

[NYer]

Exactly, but next time make sure you mention the fact that the IAM once dominated the airline industry. How many people does the IAM represent at the airlines compared to their heyday?

 
Not nearly as many. That's probably true for all unions at all airlines, isn't it.

 

[NYer]

 
Metalmover 
 
we missed by less than 50 cards but that was because AA inflated the numbers and we the organizers could not disprove all the guys on the AA list. The list went from roughly 24K down to 18k. Thats a lot of names not part of our class and craft AA added to stop the drive.
 
Well we have maintained the list in a DB which one of our organizers has maintained since then and now due to the FOIA has both US/AA lists from the NMB.both companies had to provide these lists to insure the card count would be correct.
 
We have failed to come close other times just due to lack of interest. But if we fail this time and don't get a combined 50% +1 then its over. We had enough cards last yr but the IBT and AA outsmarted us. brilliant move on their part. But both parties have deep pockets. The TWU brought in the IBT and the IBT backed out when fraudulent signed cards were brought up. But that cost us another yr. Now the Assoc. is attempting to do it again. Derail the AMFA drive, we just have to wait and see what the nMB is going to rule.

 
At some point the "movement" will have to stop being outmaneuvered. Begs the question, if the incompetence of the TWU, as alleged by the AMFA supporters, can outmaneuver the decade old AMFA drive...how can we not expect they get outmaneuvered in negotiations. (It happened with the NWA strike)

 

[NYer]

 
 
The IAM LOST all of these carriers members at one time or another.
 
1. Eastern
2. TWA
3. United
4. Continental
5. Us Airway/Piedmont
6. North West
 
TWU represents who? AA
 
Bottom of the barrel in pay as far as maintenance is concerned.

 
The IAM lost in all those carriers and STILL have substantially more Members than AMFA who has been around since before deregulation.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
At some point the "movement" will have to stop being outmaneuvered. Begs the question, if the incompetence of the TWU, as alleged by the AMFA supporters, can outmaneuver the decade old AMFA drive...how can we not expect they get outmaneuvered in negotiations. (It happened with the NWA strike)

^^^^
This.