US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 7/14-7/21 NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Barrister]

At the next crew news. Ask Doug why we ordered A350 instead of 787's.

He will tell you because we had a great price from AB. We have the original price. They gave us that price even after they raised it. About a 30% discount if I remember.

What we really wanted was 787 and 321, 320, 319 but AB gave us a smoking deal on A350. To be all AB. We could have gotten favored nation Boeing prices but the old 350 price beat the total.

Ask him yourself when they were ordered. And by who.

Hey Dude you're not dealing with rookies on this board. We could have gotten 787s.....in 2017...and AWA is not the reason we are an airbus airline. Ever heard of Steve Wolf....and I ain't bragging about that. Oh by the way what were ya gonna use as money.....cactus juice!!

 

[Barrister]

Bravo, I couldnt agree more. Being furloughed... making the ultimate sacrifice so the rest of you all can have your jobs, and how do we get treated... "staple to the bottom of the list... your lucky to have a job". Well sorry, thats just wrong. I dont need it all, but some gratitude and acknowledgment, and little of my seniority would be nice and appropriate.
Brian


Yea, and don't forget that at the time NIC was posted 500 east pilots who were placed on the bottom as furloughed and below a new hire at West were back on the flying....So much for th system. Nuclear fission will look calm compared to what will happen here if these 32 groups are forced together. I say fragment.

 

[Freighterguynow]

That is not much of a defense.

According to the Ford website a Taurus runs from $25,200 to $43,600 depending upon options selected.

USAPA has therefore spent between $50,000 and $87,000 for two cars, not to mention insurance, registration, etc. etc.

Please share with us the business case for this "necessary" expenditure.

ALPA had multiple cars at the AAA MEC building in Pittsburgh - even had special parking spaces up front.

I'm guessing many of the posters here have done no ALPA work in past but I have. If you stop and consider most pilots commute, plus the cost of rental cars every time a committee is in town .... it's far cheaper ( and more convient ) to buy a car than rent.

Ever looked at the cost of office equipment at a hotel? ALPA was paying ( during the Shuttle seniority hearings ) 50 % of the purchase price per day for copiers projectors etc.

 

[BoeingBoy]

ALPA had multiple cars at the AAA MEC building in Pittsburgh - even had special parking spaces up front.

Two during the time I did bid closing work - Chrysler mini-vans. Of course, that was for the MEC of a 6,000 pilot airline with 10 or so bases (and thus LEC's) at the time they were bought.

Jim

 

[ableoneable]

I think we have a troll on this thread.

I really can't tell. His/her syntax is so bad I am often unsure what point is being made.

 

[luvn737s]

I heard Cleary's been invited by the PHX reps to address the west pilots next month. Will he be flying in First full-fare, or will he take the Taurus?

Pssst- Leave the uniform at home. The Papal hat and gold tassels don't impress anyone.

 

[beachboy]

You guys are just a hot mess period.

 

[ableoneable]

ALPA had multiple cars at the AAA MEC building in Pittsburgh - even had special parking spaces up front.

I'm guessing many of the posters here have done no ALPA work in past but I have. If you stop and consider most pilots commute, plus the cost of rental cars every time a committee is in town .... it's far cheaper ( and more convient ) to buy a car than rent.

Ever looked at the cost of office equipment at a hotel? ALPA was paying ( during the Shuttle seniority hearings ) 50 % of the purchase price per day for copiers projectors etc.

I was an ALPA committee chair. Our MEC office was located near the airport and if a commuter was in town for business one of us would pick him/her up. I submitted exactly one expense report during the three year span I was a committee chair and none as a volunteer.

I am still not hearing any justification for the purchase of two cars. Just more; "ALPA was worse / they had more cars / reserved parking spaces / latte machines. I don't give a damn what ALPA did. They are not here anymore, but if you listen to USAPA apologists you would think they were running the show only five minutes ago.

I am a commuter but I believe that if I volunteer I should pay my own freight. Unless a commuter has extraordinary qualifications that can not be duplicated by another volunteer pilot, (This is usually not the case though it is often claimed as such.) the union should not be on the hood for incidental expenses. This is especially true if FPL is involved.

 

[700UW]

Ok then sit down and negotiate and bargain the nic

There is no one to bargain with, do you not understand the process on how Nic came to be?

Both parties were ALPA, East and West MEC, they negotiated amongst each other to try and reach a seniority list between US and HP's MECs, they could not, they both agreed to binding arbitration,(seems to me many dont understand that concept), both sides sat in front of the board and presented their case, East was even warned to change their position by the arbiter and failed to do so.

The Nic award came out and East lost, then ALPA got both sides back together to negotiate and it failed, then East pilots started their own union to try and get out of binding arbitration, then USAPA was certified and both East and West MECs were gone.

So please explain to the board who would negotiate since a Federal Trial all ready found East trying to screw the former West pilots.

It seems in all your posts you are confusing intra-union affairs with negotiating with the company under the RLA.

 

[cleardirect]

Ok then sit down and negotiate and bargain the nic

If you have not read the injunction here it is. As you can see usapa and anyone associated with them are required to use the Nicolau. It will be used just as it is released. Is that clear enough?

Usapa can not sit down and bargain for anything but Nicolau.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED in No. CV 08-1633
PHX-NVW in favor of the Plaintiffs and the class of all pilots employed by US Airways,
Inc., in September 2008 who were on the America West seniority list on September 20, 2005,
that Defendant US Airline Pilots Association and its officers, committees, representatives,
agents, and all persons in active concert and participation with them are permanently
enjoined and ordered to:

A. Immediately, and in good faith, make all reasonable efforts to negotiate and
implement a single collective bargaining agreement with US Airways that will
implement the Nicolau Award seniority proposal unmodified, according to its terms;

B. Make all reasonable efforts to support and defend the seniority rights provided
by or arising from the Nicolau Award in negotiations with US Airways; and

C. Not negotiate for separate collective bargaining agreements for the separate
pilot groups, but rather negotiate for a single collective bargaining agreement for both
pilot groups that incorporates the Nicolau Award. This injunction does not restrain
USAPA from pursuing its rights under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act, consistent
with the previous sentence.

The Court retains jurisdiction to enforce, modify, or dissolve the permanent injunction
portion of this order. The Court retains jurisdiction to adjudicate the named Plaintiffs’
unadjudicated claims for damages and any claims for attorney fees.

DATED this 17th day of July 2009.

 

[Phoenix]

Hey Dude you're not dealing with rookies on this board. We could have gotten 787s.....in 2017...and AWA is not the reason we are an airbus airline. Ever heard of Steve Wolf....and I ain't bragging about that. Oh by the way what were ya gonna use as money.....cactus juice!!

The days of Wolf (and kudos for actually knowing how to spell his name!). What would folks give to have the days of Wolf again (Sans ALPA of course )

 

[cleardirect]

OK It is time to throw the BS flag. From the usapa presidents latest message. Not only is it half truth it is just misrepresenting the facts.

One small quote.

3. Provided a declaratory judgment that the Airline and its pilots, as represented by USAPA, are contractually bound to incorporate the Nicolau Award, unmodified by added conditions or restrictions, into Section 22 of the single CBA. To the extent that this consists of another effort by the Addington plaintiffs (consistent with their approach in their failed state litigation) to deprive the pilots of their ratification vote – this too failed.

Now let’s look at the judges words from the findings of facts.

1. Declaratory Relief


Moreover, because a permanent injunction will issue, it is unclear what additional effect a declaration would have respecting the union’s breach of its duty. “Where more effective relief can be obtained by other proceedings, and consequently a declaratory judgment would not serve a useful purpose, the courts are justified in refusing a declaration.

Now read the injunction.

A. Immediately, and in good faith, make all reasonable efforts to negotiate and implement a single collective bargaining agreement with US Airways that will implement the Nicolau Award seniority proposal unmodified, according to its terms;

Look through the finding of facts. I defy anyone to find where it says in there that the Nicolau only apllies to section 22. It does not say that in fact it says that the Nicolau controls all seniority matters with out conditions and restrictions. It is very clear in the injunction that the Nicolau will be used unmodified. What am I missing?

Cleary really needs to be more honest with the members.

 

[Phoenix]

Another salient USAPA reply.

"Quick! Look, there is ALPA in the shadows! Over there! Be afraid! At least we are not them. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain with the stipend and the free car, instead listen to me the great and powerful OZ!"

Oz?

Now that is funny. ALPA attempting to caricature itself into legitimacy. I seee.. its really the paranoids we should be worried about?

Doesn't ALPA have some youtube adds ready to ask me to send in a card?

 

[hp_fa]

Look through the finding of facts. I defy anyone to find where it says in there that the Nicolau only apllies to section 22. It does not say that in fact it says that the Nicolau controls all seniority matters with out conditions and restrictions. It is very clear in the injunction that the Nicolau will be used unmodified. What am I missing?

Actually, I think letter B fits it even better.

B. Make all reasonable efforts to support and defend the seniority rights provided by or arising from the Nicolau Award in negotiations with US Airways

Here is how I read that. The company is already onboard with the Nicolau decision by having accepted it, refused the USAPA list, and finally saying as much in court on 7/14/09. Therefore USAPA doesn't even have to do any more here than accept the list themselves since everyone else is already onboard. Also, the quote does not say a thing about Section 22, but rather "the seniority rights provided by or arising from the Nicolau Award".

I don't know whether Cleary has the misunderstanding of facts or if it is SSM&P. Normally I would opine that it is Cleary, but as many of us have seen and the Finding of Facts and Law indicates, the Court went out of its way to say that USAPA's counsel had misrepresented facts, law and precedent during the history of the case.

I will leave this with one final quotation that is far more appropriate than it might seem at first glance.

“[Luke:] I can’t believe it.
[Yoda:] That is why you fail.â€￾

 

[Phoenix]

I thought USAPA was a new type of union but apparently what ALPA does USAPA will do too. Stipends, Cars, Nice Hotels expense accounts, 1.95% dues and completely ineffective......Welcome back ALPA (but with less benefits for the pilots)

Don't you worry. You can bet that the day USAPA denies the pilots a right to vote they will be tossed out with yesterdays garbage too. So far, its a new type union.