US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[nycbusdriver]

Too Late 'driver:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CW...30/ai_67499359/

Touche

 

[Megasnoop]

Barrister:
You might not have as many votes as you think after the injunction then damages are ordered. Do you really think good people are gonna support the current USAPA sham for that much longer? As soon as it hits their pockets you'll see where your perceived loyalty is.
Certainly even you understand that Judge Wake truly has the power...not just cheap talk.
Ogee

Hi newbie. AFTER the damages are ordered, IF there are any. IF we ever get to a damages trial. Looks like the judge is in no hurry to go there. No damage trial equal no damages. Right now it's looking like sometime in late 2010 before that happens, IF ever. Thats what the judge is saying. We were ready to go next month. So whose delaying? Not USAPA. Try AOL and the judge. Whose planning on deposing ALPA, Wilson Poll, maybe even the company? Whose running up the bills?

But maybe your right, AFTER the damage trial, IF AOL can find that ALPA-USAPA conspiracy, IF we dont reverse at the 9th, IF we've lost the LOA93/84 arbitration, there just might be a less support. Thats a lot of IFS.

We got plenty of time. The company isnt beating down our doors with an offer. We cant even agree on costing models, much less increased costs. We got time and money to match your latest run-up in legal costs, you dont got either.

 

[Pi brat]

You guys crack me up. When I give back your words the CB’s start to pop. Where you try and use situational logic or ethics it will not stand up in the long run.

The west has never said that we only expect to fly what we brought. That was the east. So when you start to fly stuff that you did not bring then try and twist it, it is just funny.

The west from the beginning has understood that EVERYTHING since the merger is the companies and they decide. So when a new route comes up it should and needs to be shared.

This is the quote that I commented on later.
I know for a fact that route has been looked at off and on since the first PI 767 showed up in Winston-Salem, what makes you think an east pilot had no expectation of it?

So if you guys want to use that logic. Yes AWA “looked atâ€￾ a lot of routes and airplanes over the years. Does that make it ours?

So, you admit you are just stirring the pot. Running out of real issues?

 

[cleardirect]

As was clearly the case when OJay was found "not guilty" of the murders he obviously committed, but, in later civil proceedings, found somehow liable for those very same killings? Ah yes! The court system in all it's glory and magnificence, is always utterly just, and completely infallible! Gosh...if everything could just be left up to judges and lawyers..what a truly perfect world we'd all have.

Um. The OJ trial was by JURY. The JURY decided that OJ was not guilty. The prosecutor failed to make her case. What does that have to do with this.

The appeal will be looking at if the JUDGE errored.

In the Addington case the plaintiffs made their case to the JURY that usapa demanded.

Would you like to try again?

 

[cleardirect]

That argument certainly makes sense on all levels. Should the west actually manage to obtain any "damages"....I'm sure that it'd further endear their group to the east folks, and thus, make a plus vote for Nic almost a virtual certainty.

Let me get this straight. usapa the CBA who is in charge has been found liable of not doing their job. As part of that DFR the people harmed receive damages from the people that caused the damages.

Now the people (east pilots) that encouraged the behavior are mad at the people that were harmed. What, if any responsibility does the BPR have in decided the direction and ultimate harm of the west pilots? Or are they blameless in this endeavor? What responsibility do the east pilots themselves have to telling or allowing the BPR and usapa to cause the harm and therefore the damages?

Please explain.

 

[EastUS]

Would you like to try again?

Sure. I guess we'll see whatever happens on appeal. As for making so much of the glories of the legal system...what can I say? You may see evident reasons for worship there....anyone with much life experience certainly knows far better than to be that utterly foolish. All human institutions are limited and flawed by that very same human factor. To ever imagine otherwise is naught but the purest childish fantasy. Consider just the numbers of death row prisoners that have been subsequently cleared and released. Step further into the legal darkness by way of envisioning all who've been completely innocent, yet executed, and thus..simply murdered by this infallible and wholly dependable system. If you feel it's some magically infallible/bulletproof process because round one of some labor dispute has gone your way....well...I can almost envy the child like innocence attendant to that.

 

[EastUS]

As part of that DFR the people harmed receive damages from the people that caused the damages.

Call us all when that actually happens.

 

[EastUS]

Please explain.

I'd be glad to offer my view. How about first doing me the very small honor of actually responding to even so much as one/ANY question I've offered you within the many pages of recent postings?...or...is that small courtesy simply outside the range of your sales-pitch/play-book?

 

[cleardirect]

Hi newbie. AFTER the damages are ordered, IF there are any. IF we ever get to a damages trial. Looks like the judge is in no hurry to go there. No damage trial equal no damages. Right now it's looking like sometime in late 2010 before that happens, IF ever. Thats what the judge is saying. We were ready to go next month. So whose delaying? Not USAPA. Try AOL and the judge. Whose planning on deposing ALPA, Wilson Poll, maybe even the company? Whose running up the bills?

But maybe your right, AFTER the damage trial, IF AOL can find that ALPA-USAPA conspiracy, IF we dont reverse at the 9th, IF we've lost the LOA93/84 arbitration, there just might be a less support. Thats a lot of IFS.

We got plenty of time. The company isnt beating down our doors with an offer. We cant even agree on costing models, much less increased costs. We got time and money to match your latest run-up in legal costs, you dont got either.

You really should try reading the transcripts before making statements that are not correct.

It's not an injunction case anymore. And the need and the justification for moving expeditiously in an
injunction case really is diminished in a way that I didn't focus on as much as I should have. And it's leading me to think that I have got to step back and not put you, both sides, in the position of trying to litigate a damage case on somewhat similar track to a time-urgent injunction case.

The question of the legal sufficiency of the theory leaves me very uncomfortable in this posture, precisely because I have moved this too fast on the damage side. There hasn't been enough discovery. Probably hasn't been a clear enough pleading and opportunity for the defendant to confront it. The briefing -- and I'm not criticizing the defendant for this, because they had a variety of things to talk about in the reply, but it really is sketchy when it comes to the substantive legal theories. And so I am most reluctant to make a judgment on what appear to be serious legal issues on this inadequate discovery, inadequate briefing and inadequate time for everybody to do both of those.

Yes we will get to the damages trial in good time. It will just be at a more normal pace. But we should not forget this little tidbit. Further delay only increases the cost it does not stop it.

So it's telling me that we were on the right track last week when you all both asked for more time. And so I'm thinking what I should do is step back and say, okay, this is still a case in which timing is very important to the parties. Because all damages cases somebody wants some money and somebody else doesn't want to pay it, and the whole process is figuring out whether they have to or not. And everyone is benefitted by having those questions answered sooner rather than later. But they all take some time to do. This is one where there is an additional urgency to having an answer, because if the union is liable, its liability may well be multiplying and accruing and therefore, there is benefit in the process of getting an answer, to giving closure to the union if they are not liable if the case cannot be proved, and giving plaintiff their judgment for money they are owed if it turns out they are owed money. So I don't want to suggest that I see a lack of importance to processing this damage case, but still, my sense is that the schedule I gave you in May, with hindsight, has not turned out to be fair to either side.

It appears that you were NOT ready to go next month. There were still discovery dispute to do. Very little, if any discovery had been done. How was Seham going to defend you with no evidence or discovery????? As usual not very well.

 

[cleardirect]

Sure. I guess we'll see whatever happens on appeal. As for making so much of the glories of the legal system...what can I say? You may see evident reasons for worship there....anyone with much life experience certainly knows far better than to be that utterly foolish. All human institutions are limited and flawed by that very same human factor. To ever imagine otherwise is naught but the purest childish fantasy. Consider just the numbers of death row prisoners that have been subsequently cleared and released. If you feel it's some magically infallible/bulletproof process because round one of some labor dispute has gone your way....well...I can almost envy the child like innocence attendant to that.

Does this also apply to unions or is usapa that one shining exception?

I will ignore the continuing personal insults.

 

[Richard]

OK,

More flame bait and more deleted posts.

I don't know what it is with you guys and gals.......

 

[cleardirect]

I'd be glad to offer my view. How about first doing me the very small honor of actually responding to even so much as one/ANY question I've offered you within the many pages of recent postings?...or...is that small courtesy simply outside the range of your sales-pitch/play-book?

Please re-post them and I will try my best.

I guess I missed them among the name calling.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Why is it that USAPA is completely unwilling to compromise even one red cent when it comes to collection of dues, yet, a non-stop theme of "the West must compromise on seniority" reverberates throughout the hallowed hard drives of every web-board where this labor issue is discussed?

The West lost the dues arbitration - we are paying up. The East didn't like the Nic arbitration - they have turned to their lawyer messiah to steal everything they can from the West.

Why is that?

Edited by Moderator

 

[EastUS]

Please re-post them and I will try my best.

Fair enough. Here's a few:

QUOTE (cleardirect @ Jul 13 2009, 02:08 PM) *
Where you try and use situational logic or ethics it will not stand up in the long run.

The west from the beginning has understood that EVERYTHING since the merger is the companies and they decide.

So when a new route comes up it should and needs to be shared."


EastUS: 1) Agreed..and worth your own noting as well.

2) Ah!..Umm...so; how does that fit in with all the earlier outcry about west furloughs? How does that work with the company deciding to place CLT-HNL flying?..or..was/is all of that the union's doing? if it's OK for you that the company/"they decide"...where's the winter of your discontent arising from herein?

4) ..And that logically follows from what? The current situation's one of seperate operations, in case that's eluded any here. By your own logical processes then..the company hasn't the slightest duty, and even very limited useful ability, to "share" any flying it sees fit not to. What am I missing here?"

QUOTE (cleardirect @ Jul 12 2009, 11:17 PM)
Well that means that all of you east pilots so full of integrity will all refuse to fly that CLT-HNL flight. Because you had no expectation to fly the segment before the merger. Why would you now expect the segment now?"

"EastUS: I'm a bit confused here; Is that CLT to HNL?..or PHX and/or LAS to HNL? What portion of CLT's flying do you feel yourself entitled to? Did not the company ("they decide") place this flying in CLT?

cleardirect:"The west from the beginning has understood that EVERYTHING since the merger is the companies and they decide."

Lastly; How many demands from the east to share west based flying have you ever heard?....ever?

cleardirect: "Where you try and use situational logic or ethics it will not stand up in the long run." Indeed.

 

[EastUS]

EastUS:All human institutions are limited and flawed by that very same human factor. To ever imagine otherwise is naught but the purest childish fantasy.

Does this also apply to unions or is usapa that one shining exception?

Indeed it does apply as it does to ALL human institutions. The best that any of us can ever do is strive to advance and uphold that which we believe to be decent and good. The human condition, being what it is, eliminates any real chance of us all ever gaining any true and lasting consensus as to what constitutes said decent and good.