US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[cleardirect]

Something else for the west to think about!

We all know that there are 3 major items going on at the same time........

The 9th

MDA

LOA 84 pay restoration in the east

In this game the east only has to win one of the three above choices to really prevail. The west on the other hand has to pray that we lose all three.

As JS would say, my money is on the east!

Hate

I like my odds on this one. I am all in.


BTW, since we are all experts on ripeness now. Please explain how the MDA case that has not been settled yet and could be a very long time. Have any affect on any of this? The Arbitration was done in May 2007. Listen to the audio. As the plaintiff lawyer explained you have three month to bring a claim over an arbitration. That case would be so overripe and past it's due date that it has rotted in the dump and converted to fertilizer.

As far as the snap back goes. Find a case where an arbitrator awarded $300 million PER YEAR to a union over unclear language.

The 9th. If you do win it is on ripeness. That does not stop the case just delays it. It is then up to usapa to get DOH from the company. Good luck with that. How does usapa release a contract without DOH. It would be unconstitutional. Puts them in a bad spot.

So I say the risk is all on your side.

I am all in.

 

[nycbusdriver]

"We" all could be out doing something else more enjoyable and enjoying our lives and possibly our job.

Please, feel free to lead the way.

And Happy Holidays to you, too.

 

[aquagreen73s]

As far as the snap back goes. Find a case where an arbitrator awarded $300 million PER YEAR to a union over unclear language.

It's not that unclear though. The problem with the language is that it's not so totally air tight that it doesn't instantly stop an interpretation coming in from deep left field.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Certainly you realize the absurdess of this post...................


Since when has usapa bothered with an "agenda"


Your suggesting that usapa is telling a Federal Judge "we'll get to it, when we get to it"

Good Luck with that.

Flip

Certainly you realize the cluelessness of this post....

The NAC and the company always agree to an agenda before they sit down at the table. That way, they are both ready to discuss the same thing.

USAPA has already publicly stated that, in light of the injunction, the Nicolau is their bargaining position. It has not been presented to the company because Section 22 has not been on the agenda for negotiations in over a year.

I'm suggesting that the judge gets it, and you don't.

Good luck with that.

NYC

 

[BoeingBoy]

Certainly you realize the cluelessness of this post....

If you're seriously suggesting that the NAC couldn't just say "By the way, we're replacing the DOH list we previously submitted with the Nic list" without attempting to negotiate the entirety of section 22 on the spot, it's obvious who's clueless. The arbitrator said that his list was the combined list, the company has said that the Nic list is the combined list, the judge has said that the Nic list is the combined list - I doubt that the company negotiators would be so dumbstruck as to be unable to negotiate the items scheduled for that session if the NAC said only that. It would just be one less thing to negotiate when section 22 was on the agenda.

USAPA's motives are pretty transparent in this case - leave their DOH list on the table so when they win the appeal (their fervent hope, no matter how unrealistic) their list is still on the table. The judge said that USAPA has to negotiate a contract containing the Nic list, but he didn't say when negotiations had to cover section 22. So they're using that leeway to keep from negotiating a contract containing Nic to it's fullest extent.

Jim

 

[end_of_USAPA]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...or.3cc6a46.html


So, once again, what leverage does USAPA have?

And what again is the east going to do when the reality of no snapbacks sets in?

 

[cleardirect]

Certainly you realize the cluelessness of this post....

The NAC and the company always agree to an agenda before they sit down at the table. That way, they are both ready to discuss the same thing.

USAPA has already publicly stated that, in light of the injunction, the Nicolau is their bargaining position. It has not been presented to the company because Section 22 has not been on the agenda for negotiations in over a year.

I'm suggesting that the judge gets it, and you don't.

Good luck with that.

NYC

It really is frustrating having to correct unbelievable BS spewed by union mouthpieces. Either that or simply uninformed pilots making stuff up.

This is the NAC update from November; these are the sections of the contract that were discussed. Now cross reference what the company said in their letter to the NMB about what happened in November. Page two paragraph four. Look it up but part of it is.

“Instead, the committee declared that it’s scheduling proposal would involve line bidding…â€￾

Now I don’t see anywhere in that agenda that according to the theory that they could have brought up scheduling.

So please stop with the nonsense and BS about they can only take DOH off the table when it is on the agenda.


SECTION 5 COMPENSATION FOR EXPENSES, HOTELS AND TRANSPORTATION
SECTION 18 INTERNATIONAL
SECTION 21 SYSTEM BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT AND DISPUTE RESOLUTION
SECTION 26 GENERAL

 

[Hawkhunter]

Keep laughing Metroyet. It is ALL OF US ON THE LINE. Everytime you see an East jet, picture that guy doing just fine and ready to keep you out of the action.There is no way any of us will vote you a new contract. Learn to live with what you have. It is all you are going to ever get.

Now is about the time Traderjack pipes in with the infamous statement " The Captains I fly with blah blah blah". I agree Black Swan, the majority will not vote in any new contract.

 

[cleardirect]

Something else for the west to think about!

We all know that there are 3 major items going on at the same time........

The 9th

MDA

LOA 84 pay restoration in the east

In this game the east only has to win one of the three above choices to really prevail. The west on the other hand has to pray that we lose all three.

Even with the slight chance we lose all three we still have our attrition!

As JS would say, my money is on the east!

Hate

For all of you guys placing bets on the MDA suit in solving any of your problems. You might want to actually read the law suit and figure out what they are asking for. If there is anyone donating money to the cause in hopes of overturning Nicolau. Better do some research.

This is the remedy the MDA pilots have asked for:

a) On behalf of all Plaintiffs, against defendants AIR LINE
PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL and DUANE E. WOERTH, as President of Air Line Pilots Association, International, as to the claims set forth in
12 Case 1:05-cv-04751-NG-VVP Document 63 Filed 04/18/08 Page 12 of 16 Supplemental Count I, such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than One Hundred Seventy Five Million ($175,000,000.00) Dollars;
- together with the costs and disbursements of this action, applicable interest, attorneys’ fees, and such other and further relief as the Court may deem just and proper.

That is it. Nowhere in there does it ask to overturn the Nicolau award. Nowhere does it ask for any remedy of seniority at all except for money from ALPA. Since the men of genius vote ALPA off the island they have no leverage over us or the Nicolau list. We will not even have to pay any of it even of they manage to win.

How is theMDA law suit going to be a win for the east pilots and change the Nicolau award?

 

[Flippin43]

Certainly you realize the cluelessness of this post....

The NAC and the company always agree to an agenda before they sit down at the table. That way, they are both ready to discuss the same thing.

USAPA has already publicly stated that, in light of the injunction, the Nicolau is their bargaining position. It has not been presented to the company because Section 22 has not been on the agenda for negotiations in over a year.

I'm suggesting that the judge gets it, and you don't.

Good luck with that.

NYC

NYC,

Try again, didn't the NAC pass the doh list to the Company at the end of a session, sorta, oh by the way heres this doh list and its not up for negotiation. something to that effect. What agenda item??

You are correct the Judge gets exactly what you all are doing and so far has put a stop to it.

Flip

 

[luvn737s]

.....the west may have to allow some fences to allow east to get some of their attrition, split all new int'l flying, etc.... There is a way to put all this behind us, but it will take real leadership. It will take a over haul of the leadership we have now, not saying it's good or bad now, just saying it has to change for the betterment of us all. This may all be a pipe dream, but if both sides are unwilling to eat some crow and get over the blame game....then nothing changes.

Don't you suppose the foot-dragging tactics of USAPA should count for the equivalent of a sizeable portion of any "fence" around attrition? They have captured the attrition for almost 5 years, that must be acknowledged.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Now is about the time Traderjack pipes in with the infamous statement " The Captains I fly with blah blah blah". I agree Black Swan, the majority will not vote in any new contract.

So you'll keep paying a union (and Seham) to accomplish absolutely nothing except a delay. Dues, fines, penalties, west attorney fees all coming out of your pocket and nothing coming in to compensate for the diminishing pay - all while the country is on the cusp of entering into a massive inflationary period (Obama printing money and raising the deficit limits in an already weak economy). This strategy translates to deflated LOA93 dollars until retirement with a massive run up in the cost of living. What I see is blind, senseless, irrational passion focused on the NIC which in reality is nowhere near as bad for your careers as you make it out to be.

Voting for a new contract is wise. Decertifying the union is wise. Living under the existing CBA indefinitely while in an inflationary cycle, and paying dues to a neutered, no strategy union lacks in any form of reason.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Don't you suppose the foot-dragging tactics of USAPA should count for the equivalent of a sizeable portion of any "fence" around attrition? They have captured the attrition for almost 5 years, that must be acknowledged.

I agree with cubfan, and there has been almost no attrition since the age 65 change went into effect.

 

[BoeingBoy]

and there has been almost no attrition since the age 65 change went into effect.

Ah, but before? How about nearly 10% of East pilots in 2006/2007. Add that to the new flying by the East post-merger and the East has done very well compared to before the merger. Well enough to recall the furloughees to not just offset attrition but do some of that new flying, in fact.

Meanwhile the West has had to eat their attrition plus furlough, much to the amusement - even joy - of some on the East.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

If you're seriously suggesting that the NAC couldn't just say "By the way, we're replacing the DOH list we previously submitted with the Nic list" without attempting to negotiate the entirety of section 22 on the spot, it's obvious who's clueless. The arbitrator said that his list was the combined list, the company has said that the Nic list is the combined list, the judge has said that the Nic list is the combined list - I doubt that the company negotiators would be so dumbstruck as to be unable to negotiate the items scheduled for that session if the NAC said only that. It would just be one less thing to negotiate when section 22 was on the agenda.

USAPA's motives are pretty transparent in this case - leave their DOH list on the table so when they win the appeal (their fervent hope, no matter how unrealistic) their list is still on the table. The judge said that USAPA has to negotiate a contract containing the Nic list, but he didn't say when negotiations had to cover section 22. So they're using that leeway to keep from negotiating a contract containing Nic to it's fullest extent.

Jim

Yes, it is obvious who is clueless. In the first paragraph you infer that I am, and then in the second you expound on EXACTLY what I have been saying.