US Pilots labor Discussion 12/4-

[End of USAPA]

Psst. There won't be an east or west once the seniority integration is complete.

Break that to Cleary easy now, will ya?

You have to have a vote on a joint contract. WHere do you people come up with this stuff. No joint contract, no lottery ticket!

Reed Richards was so right when he stated this stalemate will last for eternity without each side giving a little. If you guys can't figure that out you cant be helped.

And if we do vote off USAPA, who do you think will be talking to the company about a new contract? Who do you think will be the legal counsel?
How do you think domicile changes will written into the contract? You may get your joint list, but good lick getting around the fences that the MAJORITY of east pilots will put in place!

 

[luvn737s]

You have to have a vote on a joint contract. WHere do you people come up with this stuff. No joint contract, no lottery ticket!

No vote - just a set of unilateral working conditions implemented by the company and a seniority list they already accepted. Remember, this would occur after the vote to replace USAPA comes up with no union.

This is how toxic USAPA has allowed this to become - that pilots would be willing to risk the loss of union protection just to rid itself of a tyrannical monster birthed in the back of a van.

 

[End of USAPA]

No vote - just a set of unilateral working conditions implemented by the company and a seniority list they already accepted. Remember, this would occur after the vote to replace USAPA comes up with no union.

This is how toxic USAPA has allowed this to become - that pilots would be willing to risk the loss of union protection just to rid itself of a tyrannical monster birthed in the back of a van.

Yah, and the company already accepted other contract proposals before even USAPA was the legal bargaining agent. What happened to them? I will tell you, the east majority decided to redo all of them! And the same will happen with seniority- this isnt any different.
In the filling of vacancies, you better believe the east run negotiating committee with put in place LOTS of restrictions to box the west pilots in their little dessert paradise!

Merry Christmas!!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

You have to have a vote on a joint contract. WHere do you people come up with this stuff. No joint contract, no lottery ticket!

Reed Richards was so right when he stated this stalemate will last for eternity without each side giving a little. If you guys can't figure that out you cant be helped.

And if we do vote off USAPA, who do you think will be talking to the company about a new contract? Who do you think will be the legal counsel?
How do you think domicile changes will written into the contract? You may get your joint list, but good lick getting around the fences that the MAJORITY of east pilots will put in place!

I'm sensing Judge Wake will be getting out the contempt hammer. This really is playing out like a COPS episode. Sad.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Psst. There won't be an east or west once the seniority integration is complete.

Obviously you haven't been through an airline merger. The east still has "north" and "south" divisions, although after 20 years those lines are quite blurry. We still hear: "You're original Piedmont (or PSA, or USAir) aren't you?" And those mergers had a miniscule amount of animosity compared to this one the fuel those dividing lines.

And if the company decides to implement whatever contract they want (with Nic in place) in the absence of a union then that's what time it is.

I hate to break it to you, but absent a union (and therefore a contract,) the Nicolau list is meaningless, just as is DOH. (And don't expect your judge in the sandbox to do anything at all about it. He himself said that the Nicolau only resides in a combined contract, and if USAPA goes aaway, there is no contract whatsoever.) The company if free to furlough out of what we perceive as seniority. If they decide to retire the 737 fleet one day, they can simply say good-bye to all the 737 pilots and save themselves 100% of any training and displacement costs. And they will certainly do just that.

And that LOA93 that Hemenway threatened to impose on the west a few years back? Welcome to LOA93, westies. Enjoy it as much as we have.

Break that to Cleary easy now, will ya?

I think Cleary knows that. Now you do, too.

 

[nic4us]

What world do you live in???



This will NEVER be solved.

I will say this: I will be leading the charge for the formation of an LLC as well if your side prevails....I will support dissolution of USAPA and support a "straw man" election...NO UNION!

Then we can let the company decide....if they decide the nicolau then we can sue under title 7 and, as in US Air v. Barnett, taking an UNREASONABLE position contrary to normal seniority lists.

Again, I SEE SCOTUS intervention.

A world of cautious optimism, where I hope for the best, prepare for the worst, and live with the outcome either way.

If the company's countdown clock has enough time on it, this will be solved. Would you like to be a part of the solution?

If the West prevails, form that LCC, get donations (and some 2500 cards) and support your "straw man". You can build him out of the straws you are grasping at with your title 7 claim. Frankly, you will not find a judge in this country who thinks an already adjudicated result of arbitration is UNREASONABLE. I will go further and say you will not find a 1000 east pilots dumb enough to fall for that arguement.

 

[end_of_alpa]

What planet am I on when I agree with this guy? The only way to fully get rid of USAPA is to risk the temporary position of non-union. However, a bipartisan effort to form a union that represents ALL the interests of the US pilots will inevitably follow without the seniority integration wedge. Right now Cleary survives politically only as long as the civil war is perpetuated and he hides behind the Germane Fees curtain to finance his progrom.

And if that happens, the only way another union would EVER get on this property is when the last man on the west seniority list is gone....AOL will make sure that the liabilities of the predecessor union accrue to them.

INTERNECINE WAR! The company WINS!

If USAPA disappears, your lawsuit is MOOT! No damages, no attorney fees, no contract, no NOTHING but what the company gives you. And if I am type rated and current in every aircraft in the fleet and I will fly Captain for less than you will, what are you going to do?

Sue me?

 

[End of USAPA]

I hate to break it to you, but absent a union (and therefore a contract,) the Nicolau list is meaningless, just as is DOH. (And don't expect your judge in the sandbox to do anything at all about it. He himself said that the Nicolau only resides in a combined contract, and if USAPA goes aaway, there is no contract whatsoever.)

Right. The west just can't accept this fact. And even if the list is included in any joint Cba, it still has to go to a vote and I can guarantee without domicile protections the west will never see the inside of CLT or PHL crew rooms.
Which brings us to another point, the east is down to three domiciles, and we can freeze all of them with a new contract.. No loss to us, just the shrinking domicile out west. They already lost half of them and phoenix just keeps sinking deeper into recession. So sad.
But with a little cooperative effort maybe the west will see the light and actually negotiate a happy medium between east and west. the ball is in there court.

 

[end_of_alpa]

No vote - just a set of unilateral working conditions implemented by the company and a seniority list they already accepted. Remember, this would occur after the vote to replace USAPA comes up with no union.

This is how toxic USAPA has allowed this to become - that pilots would be willing to risk the loss of union protection just to rid itself of a tyrannical monster birthed in the back of a van.

So when MY LLC sues the company and YOUR LLC sues the company...what do you think they'll do? The same thing they did in Barnett...ask the SCOTUS. Forget "final and binding", forget "you agreed", forget all that. Good for the goose, good for the gander....US Airways non-union workers...D-O-H.!!!

I was there at the beginning of USAPA. I have known pilots from all walks. Want to see what happens when this kind of warfare occurs??? The last job action like this occurred at PHI helicopters in the gulf of mexico. If any of you guys know any of the pilots there why they DON'T have a union know ask them. It took roughly 10-15% to break the strike. In short, the company won and now they are AT WILL!

You get what you're given...that includes SENIORITY! Precedent says D-O-H!

Personally, I think airline pilots NEED a wakeup call and maybe US Airways pilots don't deserve a union. That's the conclusion I'm coming to.

I have 24 years and 18,000+ hours. 3,500 other east pilots have the same. I'll fly YOUR airbus as Captain for less than you. How does that grap you. Sue me? Hah!! I'm ready to compete...are you? I can tell you every INDIVIDUAL East pilot will compete with you now.

West....thanks for driving the profession to the bottom!

 

[end_of_alpa]

But with a little cooperative effort maybe the west will see the light and actually negotiate a happy medium between east and west. the ball is in there court.

FAT CHANCE!

The ONE thing AOL promised AND seem to deliver...SCORCHED EARTH!

 

[Metroyet]

FAT CHANCE!

The ONE thing AOL promised AND seem to deliver...SCORCHED EARTH!

AOL promised one thing only. That it would fully demand the legal rights of the West pilots without dilution. It seems to be working. Get used to it.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I'm somewhat miffed by that letter as it comes after how many opportunities for the company to take not only the right position, but the only position that is going to help end this senseless civil war. It's also intersting that we're seeing that kind of letter almost seven months after the verdict. But, it's clear the company has been getting more and more involved and it started with Bob Siegel's arguments last May before Judge Wake. Bob could have said a lot less, but he really hammered the issues home. Bob definitely helped shape the final form of the injunction and what was compelling, I think, is his status as a recognized authority in RLA law as his words are going to be given wide deference throughout the black robe community. We'll see what the company does going forward, but after this litigation is finished the West more or less will be along for the ride. We've done what we needed to do and what we had to do.

And THAT'S THE POINT OF IT!!

Are you just getting this epiphany or have you just returned to the planet??

The company is ALWAYS going to use EVERY advantage to divide labor to furthur its own bottom line. The letter does NOT surprise me NOR makes me angry. For they have found the foil to drive the wedge. They WANT labor civil war!

I do not agree he forged the injunction but if the injunction favors the company by keeping a combined contract from the pilots...its a WIN FOR THEM!!!

Definitly along for the ride! Definitely done what you wanted to do...create civil war!

 

[nic4us]

Personally, I think airline pilots NEED a wakeup call and maybe US Airways pilots don't deserve a union. That's the conclusion I'm coming to.

I have 24 years and 18,000+ hours. 3,500 other east pilots have the same. I'll fly YOUR airbus as Captain for less than you. How does that grap you. Sue me? Hah!! I'm ready to compete...are you? I can tell you every INDIVIDUAL East pilot will compete with you now.

West....thanks for driving the profession to the bottom!

USAirways pilots certainly do not deserve this union!

To your 18,000+ hours. Why so little junior? and what makes you think anyone cares? Now your comment that you would fly for less money (yeah you already do), that might get some attention, but your lacking resume holds no advantage. Just out of curiosity though, how many of those 18,000+ hours are not PIC?

 

[end_of_alpa]

USAirways pilots certainly do not deserve this union!

To your 18,000+ hours. Why so little junior? and what makes you think anyone cares? Now your comment that you would fly for less money (yeah you already do), that might get some attention, but your lacking resume holds no advantage. Just out of curiosity though, how many of those 18,000+ hours are not PIC?

Enough to meet the insurance requirements for EVERY AIRCRAFT WE FLY. I know you don't have a type on the 767 or A330. I'll offer to save the company the training costs and overfly your training so they can save the money. I am Captain already, been Captain already! Labor unions eschew competition, but if you want it, BRING I ON! I'm tired of West krap. I'm ready!

BTW, your "lacking resume holds no advantage" either "gramps".

Touche! (and hence my point)

 

[End of USAPA]

FAT CHANCE!

The ONE thing AOL promised AND seem to deliver...SCORCHED EARTH!

I am being hopeful, but with the tone of the AOLers around here I don't give this pilot group much chance. Time to build tall fences around CLT, PHL and DCA. Let them try and grab our attrition! They can come and pry it out of my cold dead hands!!!